Design leadership for introverts with Tim Yeo

[00:00:00] Tim Yeo: Just because you are introverted, doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you just means that you're different and different is good. It's just learning how to operate in a way, in a world and a society that desires the extrovert ideal.

Intro

[00:00:13] Nirish Shakya: We're kicking off season two with my good friend mentor and proud introvert, Tim Yeo. Tim is the design director at IBM consulting in Australia and the founder of the quiet achiever and online community for introverts. So here's on a mission to help introverts have impact and influence without pretending to be extroverts.

[00:00:35] See, when I first met Tim back in Sydney, 10 years ago, I didn't really see him as an introvert. In fact, he appeared confident in all our client meetings. So I was surprised when he started speaking about design leadership for introverts. So in this episode, I wanted to dive deeper into the journey of an introverted designer and design leader and find out how an introvert can operate successfully in a world where extroversion is the desired standard. And if you are like me and wish you were more extroverted or you kick yourself for not speaking up in that meeting, or you just wanna be more comfortable with who you are then this episode is for you.

[00:01:18] Shivaun: This is the Design Feeling Podcast with your host Nirish Shakya. 

[00:01:32] Nirish Shakya: Hi, I'm Nirish Shakya, and I'm a designer, educator, and the host of my new podcast Design Feeling. Most of the time, you'll probably find me helping organisations put their customers first, or you might find me teaching design thinking and creative innovation, but I'm on a slightly different quest here - to explore the human behind the designer - who you are, what drives you, what frustrates you and why, and ultimately how you can bring more impact and meaning into your work.

[00:02:06] On this podcast, my expert guests, and I will be uncovering ways to increase your self-awareness, creative confidence and meaning.

Welcome

[00:02:17] Nirish Shakya: Tim Yeo, welcome to Design Feeling. 

[00:02:19] Tim Yeo: Thank you so much for having me Nirish. It's been such a long time. 

[00:02:23] Nirish Shakya: I know we saw each other back in Sydney in 2019. was just literally for a drink. and before then it was like another few years, like five or six years, I think. So time flies.

[00:02:36] Tim Yeo: Gosh Nirish I think the, the most vivid memory that I have of us spending time together in Sydney was in your apartment around the table, your living room, table, wrapping dumplings.

[00:02:48] And I think we did make some Mo in your, in your apartment as well.

[00:02:55] Yeah, we did. I remember how we set up like a factory line where one person was rolling, the dough one person was filling the filling and then one person was steaming it and then taking a pause and just eating it over, sharing a meal. That was really good.

[00:03:09] good old days, good old days. another fun fact about, Tim and I is, well beside the fact that we actually work together, back in our consultancy in Sydney. we also share the same birthday. So the 24th of January, I'm not saying I'm not gonna say who's older and he's younger. I mean, Tim probably looks like a lot younger than me, although he's maybe he's a bit older than me, but yeah.

[00:03:29] Nirish Shakya: But let's not go there, but we usually the same birthday. So we used to kind of, celebrate it together at work, uh, yeah, fun times. And now we're here. So tell me, tell me your story of how you've, gotten to where you are now. So you've, founded a new company called the quiet achiever.

[00:03:45] Uh, you are also working as a design director at, IBM consulting. 

Tim's journey so far

[00:03:49] Nirish Shakya: Tell us a bit about your story from where you started and how you got to where you are now.

[00:03:54] Tim Yeo: So I've been working in design for the last Albany or realized the other day. It's probably 18 years that I've been working in design, which feels like a very long time. where, where I started user experience, wasn't even a term that existed. I graduated from university taking one single semester on human computer interaction.

[00:04:17] And that was it. I graduated worked for the only company in Singapore that did user experience consulting. when I finished there, there was nowhere else to go because I really enjoyed what I do. And I started my own company and started consulting on user experience projects. did that for a number of years.

[00:04:36] And then we moved to Australia about 10 years ago now. And that's where you and I met at objective, digital at the time. and for the last 10 years I've been, working in design. both from the consulting side, as well as, in house, mostly in startups, more recently at three startups, which were firstly prosper, finder, and then also OFX, which is international money transfers.

[00:04:59] I've really enjoyed that nice mix of working both on the consulting side, as well as in-house. And then now I'm back on the career track of, consulting again with IBM as the design director here in IBM Australia. our focus in IBM in our group is to embed cross-functional teams within enterprise.

[00:05:21] Tim Yeo: So working at enterprise scale, but having an, startup speed.

[00:05:27] Nirish Shakya: Great. I know how you good. You are as a designer and as a design leader, because you are one of my first mentors when I first started in my career. And I clearly remember, how confidently that you managed, stakeholders and clients in a room, ran design workshops, and, helped me grow as a, as a young designer as well.

[00:05:48] and that brings me to the, the main topic of our conversation. being an introvert. , you know what, when I saw you work, I never saw you as an introvert. I always saw you as this really confident leader who would be able to, lead a project leader team from the beginning to the end, no issues.

[00:06:08] and when I first, saw you talk about being an introvert, I was actually pretty surprised. tell me, like how, how did you come into this, re realization that you are an introvert and how did you then,know, start speaking publicly about it and then helping other people, with, with their introversion as well.

How Tim realised he's an introvert

[00:06:29] Tim Yeo: I think deep within myself, I've always known that I've been an introvert. but I've always liked, the vocabulary or way to talk about it up until I think it was 2012 when I first came across Susan's Kane's book and her Ted talk on quiet and what being an introvert is for me that was an inflection point.

[00:06:48] It was a light bulb moment, where I started hearing and having language to talk about who I was and how being in social situations might be really tiring for me. from that point, I started talking to a lot more people, whether they were introverts or whether they were extroverts and trying to understand what they are experience like.

[00:07:07] And earlier on, you mentioned, how I would appear confident, in client meetings. I think a lot of it is really learning small little tricks to adapt and be, and play the role that we needed to be. Because even though I may appear or have appeared confident on the outside, it's kind of like a duck, duck, swimming on water, where they might look very calm and stable above the water.

[00:07:34] But below the surface that duck is peddling their feet like crazy, but you don't see it. And I think over 

[00:07:41] Nirish Shakya: you like that duck in those, all those, meetings that you ran where I was like, how does Tim do this? He was like, he was, he was awesome. I wanna be like him one day. and you were just like paddling, like crazy under the surface.

[00:07:52] Tim Yeo: Nourish. I think if you speak to myself and many other people, they will admit that, within themselves, they are still that, duck feet, underwater pattern really quickly. It's just that experience gives you that confidence that you, youthat you will get to a good outcome because you've seen these patterns before.

[00:08:09] but to talk a bit more about that paddling under the water that people don't see if you layer onto that, that imposter syndrome, because I've never really had a formal design education. I may have taken one, one semester in human computer interaction, but I've never had a design degree. A lot of the stuff that I learned in user experience was simply from learning by doing.

[00:08:35] so it is that experience of having practiced and delivering results for clients. That I think gives me the confidence that working in a certain way actually works. and thinking back about, when we first started working together, I think it was probably that time when new ways of working like agile, also, also coming into play.I think what we realized is that there will always be new things. But at some level, there will always be a consistent way of working or consistent set of truths that will, if we stick to and believe, will always lead us a good results 

[00:09:10] Nirish Shakya: Hmm.

[00:09:11] Tim Yeo: doing customer.

[00:09:13] Nirish Shakya: things that are just apply? pretty much. Anytime

[00:09:17] Tim Yeo: Well, I'll give you one example. Like it's always a good idea to talk to customers and to talk to customers, not just once, but also on some kind of cadence and regular basis. So how do we fit that into the work that we do so that we are in constant contact with customers in some shape or form so that, customer research and talking to customers is not an accident is not a one time thing.

[00:09:39] It's something that happens over time. So thinking about, thinking about how, when we were working and having that imposter syndrome and not having. That design degree. And then you layer on top of that, my own, sense of introversion, where doing some of these presentations and leading some of these workshops, it's tiring, it's physically draining. I will finish some of those, high engagement days going home and just, not really wanting to do much after that, just having a meal and just, just going to bed because those activities, for me, being an introvert takes a lot of energy out of me.

[00:10:15] doesn't mean that I don't like doing it. I get a lot fulfillment from it. It's just that compared to, let's say an extrovert where those activities are energizing. in fact, they might finish a day having a lot more energy because they've had a lot of social interaction. It just means that for me, at the end of the day, a lot more drained.

[00:10:34] Tim Yeo: And there will be things that I have to do to help compensate and make sure that, like for example, building in break times so that I have time to recharge and then come back, and then perform again. it's really over the years of doing this and learning all these small habits that I didn't even realize at the time I, at the time I real, I thought everybody was doing this, that everybody was learning how to schedule in breaks, how to, prepare in advance for workshops so that you can perform and being present during those sessions.

[00:11:07] I kind of thought that everyone was knew this and was doing it. It was really only when. I shared this in the talk I gave, which was called design leadership or introverts that people started coming up to me and saying, oh, I wish I knew this. it seems so simple. I'm gonna start practicing it.

[00:11:24] and that's really where I started giving this top more and more. Well,

[00:11:28] Nirish Shakya: You mentioned how,introverts get, get, get the energy from, being. alone or by themselves, and extroverts get the energy from being with people. so I mean, when I first read that, I was like, how does that work? Because a lot of people, we rest to recharge our batteries.

[00:11:45] Right. How, how does an extrovert get the energy from people when, and, that's not really rest, is it?

[00:11:50] maybe the first protocol would be to talk to an extrovert then because, and ask them what their experience is like.

Where extroverts and introverts get their energy from

[00:11:57] Tim Yeo: So my understanding of, introversion and extrover version is it exists on the spectrum, right? Who we are, and what we do is not fixed. It is dependent on the people that are around us, our context.

[00:12:11] So in certain scenarios for myself, when I'm with close friends or with family having dinner, for example, my extroverted side might come up more. but then, for an extrovert, being around people, having that social interaction and networking, those kind of events actually give them energy.

[00:12:29] The more they do it, the more, they get energy, then they can keep going. But when I'm doing that, even with close friends and family, for a period of time, it then quickly follows with a period of. just needing to rest and to be quiet and my own and doing stuff that will refill my energy levels. If you put an extrovert in a scenario where they are on their own a lot, and they are, doing things without much interaction, those are situations that make them feel de-energized.

[00:13:00] and I know this is true because I've had conversations even just last week, with an extrovert. and it's exactly as I just described, like the pandemic, for example, has been really difficult for them because those social intact, those interactions don't naturally occur anymore. It's gotta be a zoom call.

[00:13:18] you don't bump into people. You don't have small talk at the water cooler anymore. And for a lot of extroverts during the pandemic, that's been a real challenge. and the good ones or the people who they, they engineered ways to have that social stimulation that does give them energy. but it has been a very difficult period for, for, for some people, for those reasons.

[00:13:44] Nirish Shakya: the different ways in, which different people respond to? the stimuli outside of. Hmm.

[00:13:51] Tim Yeo: So it, so it could be social interaction. That's one form of stimulation. If you think about working in a open plan office, I, for example, would have preferred wearing headphones so that I can focus for other people. They enjoy, nudging you so that they can have a quick site conversation about a design that they're working on.

[00:14:11] It. It really depends. It's think of it. The, the definition I like is more around stimulation, whether it's social or audio or visual.

[00:14:21] Nirish Shakya: And one of the things that I think you mentioned in your talk is how, extroversion is a trait that is more desired in leaders. Why do you think that's the case?

Why extroversion is a more desired trait in leaders

[00:14:32] Tim Yeo: Well, this story that I'm about to share actually comes from Susan's Kane's book, which I really enjoyed. So I'll, re-share it here, in our conversation before when you look at, and I think this must be the early 1920s or so when you look at the self-help section in bookstores, most of the books will talk about integrity.

[00:14:52] how being a good upstanding person is, will be that period. And with the industrial revolution, people started moving to cities. And living in places where, the people that you work with and get to know are complete strangers. Most of the time before you would probably be living and working in a place where the people you grew up with and went to school with, ended up being the people that you worked with.

[00:15:16] Tim Yeo: So you never really,

[00:15:18] Nirish Shakya: knew everyone in the

[00:15:20] Tim Yeo: exactly the friends that you make from school end up being the people that you work with. So you never really, needed to have networking, socializing the ability to make small talk if you had those skills great. But I start people started moving to the cities and, and working with new people all the time, those skills, then all of a sudden became a lot more desirable.

[00:15:45] And then if you look at where those skills reside in, they tend to exist in extroverts because that's their natural, way of being, they, they, they wanna go out, they wanna meet people. They want to be introduced that's that stimulation actually energizes them. Well, which contrast that with the picture of what the, a leader looks like in society.

[00:16:07] I think that's been research that, was shared recently. I saw on Twitter. I don't think it was done by Adam Grant, but he did share on Twitter about how the people who speak up more, tend to be promoted more, promote it more. And this has got nothing to do with the quality of the work they do. They do.

[00:16:26] Tim Yeo: It's just simply the act of them speaking up more. And when you look at how introverts or extroverts might behave in a work environment, the own introverts that I've coached. Tend to need a little bit more time to process. So perhaps you might not see them speaking up as often in meetings. but then for some of the extroverts that I've spoken to speaking up is the way that they think, it's from conversations, exchanging of ideas that they start forming their point of view.

[00:16:56] So if the, what the 

[00:16:58] Nirish Shakya: out loud.

[00:16:59] Tim Yeo: pretty much. So if what the research 

[00:17:02] Nirish Shakya: more comfortable with thinking out loud versus introverts who need to think within themselves first, before they speak it out.

[00:17:10] that is the pattern that I'm seeing. I do not know if this is empirically true for all extroverts. I do sometimes find myself speaking out loud. It's just what happens most of the time. And in a lot of the coaching conversations I've had with introverts, they prefer to have time to really. Think and form what they wanna see and how they wanna see it before they actually see it.

[00:17:34] Tim Yeo: Whereas,

Do skill and experience make you more extroverted?

[00:17:36] Nirish Shakya: but I've got a question there, is it? Because I, I used to think that was because I lacked confidence or I lacked the skill to process that information, faster. Is it, does it have anything to do with your confidence or your level of skill or aptitude or anything like that, or does it come down to your natural trait of, swinging more towards the introverted side of the scale?

[00:18:00] I can only speak from my own experience and what gives me confidence is having seen a certain pattern before. Right? So when you work on a client project, when you're trying to solve a particular problem, the benefit of experience is that if you've done this before. You understand where the common pitfalls are.

[00:18:19] Tim Yeo: It might be a completely different space domain project. People doesn't really matter it. The core here is that when you're trying to work on a thing, there's probably a pattern of ways of problems and challenges that you face that you are already familiar with. and I think it's really that experience for me personally, that gives me that, that confidence going into a situation, knowing that, if we do things in a certain way, we will probably get to a good result.

[00:18:50] Might not be a great result, but it might, will probably be at least a good result, less.

[00:18:55] Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Cause I remember, attending client meetings with you. And I used to be the quiet one in the room because I was relatively new to the industry. I didn't know what to say to the client. but now I can walk in into the similar kind of meeting and I can, say what I need to say without, being shy about it or, feeling self-conscious.

[00:19:15] So does that mean that, in that particular context, my, I have moved from more of an introverted part, side of the scale to more of an extroverted side due to my,increased experience and, and skill and confidence in that particular scenario.

[00:19:34] Tim Yeo: think there are a few things there. So your experience has helped you prepare. So one example of preparing is having an agenda. One activity you might be doing is a kickoff meeting with clients, right? So you have an agenda. You go in, you explain what the, each person's, project team roles are, their roles and responsibilities who's supporting, who's responsible, who's accountable.

[00:20:00] that structure, that framing is a pattern and that pattern you can apply across different kinds of work that you might do. And it is really that structure, that pattern that will give you confidence, going to situations that you don't have all the answers to because you know that if you follow that process, that pattern, that agenda, it's gonna get you to a good outcome.

[00:20:24] Nirish Shakya: helps.

[00:20:27] Tim Yeo: The key here is, is just one of the four PS that I recommend, right? The first P is preparation. Now the next P is presence. So if you prepare, it gives you the confidence to when you're in the moment to be 100% present. Because you've already done all your preparation, right? This can be something they apply to client meetings.

[00:20:53] It is certainly something that I apply to when I speak publicly. So part of the preparation will be knowing very clearly, what is this? I want to say, practicing it out loud, not just writing something out, but actually verbalizing and speaking out loud as part of that preparation. and then once we're doing the session, doing the thing itself, being able to be 100% present listening, focusing so that if stuff comes up, you can improvise.

[00:21:23] you can talk about other things that you're noticing during the thing. and you are always 100%, confident about the preparation that you've done already beforehand, because you won't be caught. You feel confident that you've done the preparation. For the event and they got something they can fall back onto in

[00:21:42] Nirish Shakya: So does that mean that, if you're an introvert, it requires more prep preparation, of you, before these situations where you have to deal, with people then more than more so than extroverts.

[00:21:56] Tim Yeo: the conversations that I've had with both introverts and extrovert, the patterns been consistent. extroverts tend to have the ability to walk into situations like social interactions and being able to, to just perform on the spot. they have their own scripts as well. which are. For example, how to say hi, talking to people how their day is.

[00:22:17] I think, I think a lot of these scripts, a lot of these patterns, a lot of these tricks or hacks or tips, whatever you call them, I think they are applicable to both introverts and extroverts is a, is just trying to figure out what works best for you.

[00:22:33] Nirish Shakya: So, and you've been in the design industry for, quite a long time now, both as a practitioner and a leader, and also as a coach, as. Right. from your experience, from what I've, what you've seen in your own career and in the careers of other people you've worked with, what are the parts of the, the design process where, introverts tend to do well and the parts where they tend to, struggle more because of, the introversion,

Parts of the design process preferred by introverts and extroverts

[00:22:59] Tim Yeo: A lot of the introverts that I have been coaching have been designers. when I speak to a lot of the people in the industries that I work with, it, the tendency for designers when they're working is long periods of focus on crafting the thing that they're doing, whether it's web design, app design. It requires long periods of just really focus, work, trying to make the thing, the best thing that you make. Now, when you look at that kind of work, it leans very heavily towards people who like working in solitude, people who enjoy crafting and making sure that things are really good and very focused at very detailed flow state.

[00:23:47] Now, if you are an intro, if you are an extrovert that requires a lot more stimulation, this kind of work for long periods is probably not gonna not gonna suit you. if your Des, the work in design that you do is less about pixel pushing and more about stakeholder management workshops, those kind of interactions, then yeah, there, there will be, there will be roles that will tend better for extroverts, but if you are on the pixel pushing side of design work, That's where I seen a lot of, designs tending towards being introverts.

[00:24:25] Nirish Shakya: if you are in a role where you're pretty much predominantly, working in front of a screen, but you don't find that,what's the word energizing. to you, what can you do to start making some changes so that you can get more of the people facing roles and vice versa as well? let's say if you don't enjoy running a lot of workshops, but you wanna just be with yourself, headphones on, designing some, UI or screens on a, on a screen.

[00:24:53] what can you, what can designers do to, mold or shape their role to fit their natural, characteristics or, or, or, or is that even something that we need to do, try to do? Or is it more about, shaping ourselves to fit into those roles?

Try out different things and focus on your strengths

[00:25:13] Tim Yeo: I think you don't know what you're good at and what you like or what you don't like up until you try? I think for a long time, especially early in my career, I focus on trying to make my weak, my weak points stronger. It was only later in my career that, I realized that maybe there's a better way of doing things.

[00:25:36] Maybe I should be focusing on the things I do well and making my strengths even stronger. I think over time, as you reflect and you think about what actually gives you energy, what are things that you're good at and that you enjoy doing where th those things overlap? Those should be the things that you focus on.

[00:25:55] So that might be pixel pushing that might be designing a design team that might be managing people. You wanna be choosing and doing the things that give you the most energy and satisfaction most of the time. And if that's in the company you're working at right now, if you have that opportunity to craft your role great.

[00:26:19] But if you don't, then it's a good checklist to have when you're starting to look out for that next role.

[00:26:25] Nirish Shakya: I'm actually picturing the double diamond right now being a design nerd. So what you're saying is, don't be afraid to explore, things that you haven't tried before. Try new things, expand that diamond, go divergent. And once you then figure out what kind of things that you enjoy doing more, try to do more of that, that kind of gives you that joy, on a daily basis.

[00:26:51] Tim Yeo: Yeah, definitely. a lot of times when we, we go through our lives and our careers just stumbling forward, we try different things. There are two people that are talking about this right now. One person is max Heley in Australia. And the other person is Larry cor cornet, where essentially what they're talking about is we should be designing our careers.

[00:27:14] We should be thinking about how we wanna level up, how do we wanna progress? What does our career look like? as our next step, because the longer we do this, we also start to realize that life is actually very short and we should be spending the time doing the things that give us energy, rather than trying to pretend to be somebody else's version of perfect.

[00:27:41] I went through this same journey myself. I, for a long time, tried to pretend being that picture of what society told me a leader was like, and it was tiring. and that's part of the reason why I started the Quiet Achiever, because I knew for myself that there's a different picture of what a leader could look like. And it doesn't always have to be that extroverted picture, and want to be able to show other people who are on that journey to realize that, being who they are is ok.

[00:28:06] Nirish Shakya: Hmm.

[00:28:09] Tim Yeo: okay.

[00:28:09] Nirish Shakya: I think that's a really powerful. Shift in mindset. that I think, I personally struggled with, throughout my career, because just like you, I was given a script of what I should be like. And I remember growing up, I was very shy. I was very introverted and my parents, my family say, why are you so shy?

[00:28:31] And I need to talk to people more. And I always thought there was something wrong with me, right? It's oh, I need to be like those kids who always raise their hands and, give the answer to the teacher. I'll always like, being the, in the first one to jump into these group discussions and projects and things like that.

[00:28:48] And it was like this,ideal self, this picture of an ideal self that you create in your head that you're always chasing. And while you're in that chase, you miss out on. The moments where you're in, in the present moment where you can just be comfortable with who you are. And I think that is a powerful mind mindset shift that, in my personal experience can be very difficult to achieve.

[00:29:15] because a lot of times we're so focused on the doing and the chasing that it's difficult for us to take the time out, to really, take a step back and see what's going on with, within yourself. and then maybe, recalibrate how you see yourself.

Modelling other people's behaviours

[00:29:30] Tim Yeo: look, there's nothing wrong in trying to model behavior of people that you respect. Right. I read a lot of autobiographies. I try to understand the way that people work, how they operate, how they think there's nothing wrong with that, because it is through this, this discovery process that you actually start to find out, who you are.

[00:29:54] There's nothing wrong with stealing the habits and practices of other people, because once you steal them, You then make them your own. and then over time, that collection of habits, practices, ways of thinking, they start shaping who you are as a person. And then that's the people. That's, that's your personality.

[00:30:14] That's who you present, in front of other people that becomes who you are. But the key here is if you don't know, if you, if you, if you don't try and put some of these things into practice, then you'll never know that it's not whether it's your thing or whether it's not your thing. So I don't think that's a problem trying modeling behaviors of other people.

[00:30:36] it's the key here is you don't have to, if it's not your cup of tea, that's fine. You can always find something.

[00:30:41] Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Mm. I recently attended a, a course on emotional intelligence at, the school of life, here in London. And, they were referring to something similar where when you listen to other people, you learn more about yourself. And I thought that was really true, cuz you know, a lot of times you do tend to interpret what they're saying and then try to fit that into the context of your own, own of your own life.

[00:31:09] And like you said, reading about people you wanna model or listen to them can actually help you learn more about who you really are. And and that's personally been true in my experience as well. 

[00:31:19] Tim Yeo: Yeah, I think so. sometimes in conversations, people, what I discover is that a lot of people actually don't listen well, Oftentimes when people are having conversation, instead of listening to what the person is saying, people are thinking about what they wanna reply back, rather than actually hearing what the other person is saying.

[00:31:43] I think really in our craft, in design, when we're doing user research, it was really that activity that really helped me listen better because it wasn't about me. it was about the person trying to use, a piece of technology to do the thing that they wanted to do. And I think it was that experience that really showed me the importance of just being present, being in the moment, listening, observing, watching, and seeing what's happening in that person's experience.

[00:32:11] but it's not a natural, it's not, it's not a thing that will come naturally to everybody being able to listen. Well,

How can junior designers learn from seniors in a remote environment?

[00:32:18] Nirish Shakya: And I remember learning so much from just listening to the way you conducted user interviews. being either in the same room as a note taker or being in the observation room. And I feel like, a lot of the junior designers coming into the industry, especially where Pluto, there's a predominantly remote working culture.

[00:32:39] And that's pretty much the case in a lot of companies at the moment that they seem to be missing out on these opportunities to just sit and listen to how more senior, more experienced designers and stakeholders actually communicate and,deal with, issues. What would be your recommendation for especially junior designers to be able to, yeah.

[00:33:03] Learn through listening or just being with people when they're not really around. People in real life, there's just in front of a screen.

[00:33:13] Tim Yeo: Gosh, there's a, there's such a. That's such a hard question. I have an opinion. It's probably a controversial one.

[00:33:23] Nirish Shakya: Go for

[00:33:23]

[00:33:23] Tim Yeo: so I think a lot of the time we don't put time and I think not many design organizations put time and attention to make sure that people are leveling up and getting onboarded into new organizations in a good way. I think certainly there are some organizations that do this very well, but I think the vast majority actually rely on ad hoc in person, ways of working to help people assimilate, understand culture, ways of working and the best way to do this is actually in person.

[00:33:59] Because you can nudge people. Who's sitting next to you when you call the ad hoc question, you can always turn to somebody else and talk to them. If there's a question that you have at the spur of the moment doing this remotely is possible, but it's harder to have a lot more of those ad hoc conversations.

[00:34:19] You could be, instant messaging people a lot of the time, but that's not really productive way of working. That's really just taking a synchronous, live in person way of working and moving it online. So that in my opinion, doesn't work, trying to take a in person sequence. We are working and putting it online doesn't work.

[00:34:44] So in my opinion, what does work? What does work would be a lot more structure, a lot more preparation of how people actually get onboarded. How do you actually. journey designers, skill up, being intentional about that onboarding journey, being clear about how people progress in their careers, how do, journey designers level up into that next me mid to senior level, and then to a senior IC level, mature organizations have career ladder, career paths.

[00:35:14] They have structured programs of how people can level up. But the reality when I speak to other design leaders is that is an exception rather than the norm. So I think it is hard being a junior designer joining. An organization already. I think being a junior designer, joining an organization in a hundred percent remote team that doesn't have those scaffoldings career ladders pathways, not having a lot of that in place is, is even, even harder talking

What can design leaders do to help junior designers?

[00:35:51] Nirish Shakya: what can design leaders do knowing, what junior designers are going.

[00:35:58] Tim Yeo: to them, being intentional about their junior designers journey as they are leveling up, being intentional about designing how people get onboarded, how do they. How do they actually skill up, be intentional about pairing them with specific people on teams to learn a specific skill that you think they need coaching in.

[00:36:19] with some of the design leaders that I'm speaking with on a regular basis, work is so all consuming there. Oftentimes they don't even have time to pause and reflect and actually focus on developing their people because a lot of their time is just focus on shipping work, making sure that, stuff gets done well.

[00:36:41] and it's maybe on a quarterly, if they're lucky that they start talking about performance reviews is really usually those trigger points that actually people start having conversations about career progression. I think where we can mature as an organization, sorry, as an industry is really being intentional about how we can help our, our designers and our people level up.

[00:37:08] Tim Yeo: Because certainly if you look at our industry today, where it is, in my opinion, a candidate's market, where there are more jobs to be filled rather than people to fill them. people designers have opportunity. And if you don't give them roles in organizations where they feel they can level up and grow, they will go somewhere else in organization, that's willing to invest in them.

The shift in mindset needed from design leaders

[00:37:31] Nirish Shakya: So what is the mindset shift that is required for leaders and organizations to start building these scaffoldings that he talked about, where you know, that junior designers can use to climb up that,

[00:37:47] Tim Yeo: Recognizing that maybe you don't know how to do it and then seeking the help that you need, to actually do it well. I think one of the best things about our industry is if you actually reach out to people and also help for two people who have done this before, you don't have to struggle on your own.

[00:38:05] People are very, quite open to what you share you, how they've done it, to reach a maturity level. So asking for help, talking to people, getting coach yourself, getting training, trying to learn how other people have done it well. And then once you've done that, actually following through. and then doing that for your own team, because a lot of the time, this work that you do, the results of it is not gonna show up immediately.

[00:38:34] You're not gonna get a 12% increase in conversion, just from designing a career path for your designers, retaining your best talent is a long term goal. and oftentimes, it, it's an investment that you have to make knowing that in the long run it's gonna pay off.

[00:38:48] Nirish Shakya: but do you think maybe companies nowadays think, the design is gonna leave in a year or two anyway. Why bother investing? in that person when they're gonna.

[00:38:57] Tim Yeo: Yeah, look, certainly that's gonna be true. and that will certainly happen in some organizations, I suppose, as a design leader, you to ask yourself, what kind of team do you wanna be? and what kind of people do you want to be on that team? I think a lot of times we don't stop and reflect and ask ourselves those questions and the team just ends up being the kind of team that you stumble into.

[00:39:21] But I think if you pause and reflect and actually be intentional about what kind of team you wanna be, then you have that confidence to invest in the things that really matter.

Being aware of biases when hiring designers

[00:39:31] Nirish Shakya: Hmm, let's talk about recruitment and, I've recruited quite a few designers, for my. in various roles and reflecting back now, it feels like I was more biased, towards recruiting extroverted candidates who, appeared more bubbly and more passionate. and because thought, oh yeah, I know this person is probably, like I said, more passion in, in terms of this particular role.

[00:39:57] And I would enjoy working with them more. And whenever I spoke with more introvert and acquirer candidates, I thought maybe their passion wasn't coming across. So maybe I might have been biased to, give the job, offer the job to the more extroverted candidate. do you think that happens?

[00:40:12] Tim Yeo: Oh, Soly that happens. So it speaks to the importance of having,a scorecard, like a balance scorecard about the people that you wanna hire. we're human, we all have biases. this scorecard actually helps you stay accountable to objective things that you're hiring against so that you're not main making a bias decision.

[00:40:31] It's also important to you involve other people on your team and your teammates in that hiring process because the person they are hiring is gonna be the people that they work shoulder to shoulder with every single day. So getting their feedback is gonna be important as well. If you're looking to hire a diverse team, people who might be of different genders, different ethnicity, different kinds of neurodiversity.

[00:40:57] The first thing you probably should do is to assess your current makeup of your team. what are the aspects, where, where are areas where you have a lot of same, same, and where are areas where you're keen to get a little bit more different? And then once, where are the gaps, the areas that you wanna be more different in, you can then hire against those criteria.

[00:41:17] You can start shortlisting candidates that fit that criteria. And then over time, you might have to make some hard decisions where you might have to say no to a certain candidate because they don't fit the gaps that you're trying to fill. Those are some hard decisions that you'll have to make, but in the longer run, having a diverse team in my point of view will stand a team in good state.

[00:41:41] Nirish Shakya: That's a really interesting way to look at it. And that's not how I looked at recruitment, as a design leader. And when I was recruiting, I was predominantly hiring for skills, and the velocity in which I can, fill those seats and get our project moving forward faster. but that seems like definitely, again, a really crucial shift in how we look at recruitment itself in terms of where we are now, where we wanna be in the future and trying to take the steps to get there in terms of,diverse representation within the team. 

Why Tim started the Quiet Achiever

[00:42:17] Nirish Shakya: So Tim you've, uh, recently, started a new company called the quiet achiever. How did you, decide to start, start.

[00:42:28] Tim Yeo: So the, I idea came about last year around April or June, by that time I'd given the talk design leadership for introverts, maybe three or four times to different audiences. Every time I finish giving that talk, I've always had extroverts and even extroverts coming up to me saying, thank you so much for giving that talk.

[00:42:46] is there any way that I can access more of that content because it's something that they keen to practice more? I knew at the time that I could, I certainly even today I certain need a full time job. quiet achiever is actually a site hustle is something that I do after work. and I wanted a way to be able to have impact, Without it being too owners of me because I still have to do my day job.

[00:43:07] Tim Yeo: So the thinking behind the choir achiever was how am I be able to help the most amount of introverts I can with the smallest amount of effort in a way that I can scale. So that was ready, that where the idea actually started, and I can slowly, build my audience and community over time. so I landed on a, online community, which is what choir achiever is.

[00:43:34] we help introverts have impacted influence without pretending to be extroverts. we have about 30 plus videos and topics like how to make small talk, how to network, how to speak up more in meetings. what do you need to do as you're progressing your career from IC into a people leader as an introvert?

[00:43:53] we have each, topic. Each video is bite sized is less than five minutes long where we might talk about topics like, how to give feedback. how do we use social media to extend our networks online, changing people's frame that networking doesn't have to be in person with strangers in awkward room.

[00:44:10] Tim Yeo: There are many other digital ways that you can do it. we also have multi-cast speakers from people they might not know have been introverts that are design leaders for a long time. Like Bob Baxley, Larry Cornett. We also have guest speakers who are extroverts like max handy. the real goal here is to create a way that introverts can learn and a self-paced way, but also get to interact with.

[00:44:36] Fellow introverts, who for a very long time. And as far as I can tell, do not have a space and a place in a community where, everybody knows your name, that everybody doesn't really have to explain why they're so quiet or where everybody understands how awkward it is to introduce yourself to the first time in the front of a group of, people that you don't know.

[00:45:00] you don't have to explain those things because that's, that's who we are. We all suffer and have that kind of anxiety, in our day to day. And I want to create that space so that people can feel like they belong and to have those conversations about where, how they wish they were better, but also learn how they can improve.

[00:45:19] Tim Yeo: And also recognize that, just because you are introverted, doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you just means that you're different and different is good. It's just learning how to operate in a way in a world and a society that desires the extrovert ideal. Oh

[00:45:34] Nirish Shakya: That's that's definitely very powerful. thanks for sharing that, 

Tim's favourite resources for introverts

[00:45:37] Nirish Shakya: Tim. what's been your number one resource. That's helped you in your career as a, an introverted design leader.

[00:45:45] Tim Yeo: gosh. there are so many books that I can refer you to in Naresh. the ones that come to mind, if you're an introvert, if you haven't read it yet, please read Susan Kane's book called quiet. that really opened up my eyes to the world of, just giving me the words to talk about I introversion and what that is.

[00:46:01] that's a really good book. If you are thinking of becoming, want to speak, want to speak better as a public speaker, I would encourage you to read, Scott bur Koon's confessions of a public speaker. It's a really good book, very practical tips from a person who used to make his living as a public speaker.

[00:46:21] Tim Yeo: Who's also an introvert and also coach people in public speaking. I would highly recommend that book. If you are a manager or a leader, or want to be a manager leader, I encourage you to explore the leadership framework called situational leadership. It's a framework that I still use today that talks about how you have to adapt your style of leading depending on the situation. and also working within a team environment, and how you can create a high performing team.

[00:46:53] I encourage you to read Patrick Lanis FIS dysfunction. So team it's written as a fable. And I think when you read that book, you recognize characters and people in that book that you've had your own experience working with know day to day. and I, I think maybe one last resource that I'll leave you with anything that Christina Woodkey has written, from radical focus to the team that managed itself to just pencil it in Christina Woodkey is my brain crush.

[00:47:23] I read everything that she's written and she's an amazing writer.

[00:47:28] Nirish Shakya: Great. Thanks for that, Tim. I have to confess, I haven't read any of those books. So definitely something to add to my reading list. And, we'll also add links to all those resources in the show notes as well. So you can just tap on your podcasting app where you're listen right now and go straight to that, that resource.

[00:47:45] So thanks for, thanks for sharing those, 

What would Tim ask himself?

[00:47:46] Nirish Shakya: Tim. is there a question that I haven't asked you that you would ask yourself? Something that you wanna find an answer to that you still haven't found?

[00:47:56] Tim Yeo: The thing that comes to mind is what I will leave behind and how I want to be remembered. I think a lot of my career has been, entering a field that was not formally trained in stumbling into this topic of design leadership for introverts that seems to resonate. I think I've been very fortunate and lucky in, being able to do things that give a lot of people value. at this stage in my life, I'm starting to think, I probably still have a couple of good years left working and delivering value. but those years are finite and I'm starting to thinking, where do I want to be spending most of my time? Who are the people that want to be helping most of the time.

[00:48:40] Because time time that I have left to do that, productively is finite. And I wanna spending most of my time that I have left. Gosh, it sounds like I'm dying. I mean, technically we are all dying every day, but,when I think about it, it's, it's really, who, what do I want to spend the rest of the time that I have left on this planet? Who don't spend that time helping? Who, what problems do I wanna solve and being a lot more intentional about that? I think that's, that's a, that's a one question that I'm trying, trying to think, trying to answer for myself.

[00:49:13] Nirish Shakya: Mm, what, what are some of the, the techniques you've used to try to get closer to that answer?

[00:49:20] Tim Yeo: I don't know in the rush. No, one's really asked me that question before. I think, I think I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that I've really thought about it intentionally and written down a list of things that wanna make happen. But I can say that I have been prioritizing certain things. for example, making sure that I spend time with my family and with my dog and doing things that, really give me energy, things that I wanna do in my, in the new home that we purchased.

[00:49:50] growing stuff, doing stuff around the house, making a home. Those are things that give me energy and I always wanna. focusing on the community and the quiet achiever coaching people, helping them level up so that they don't have to make and struggle with the same mistake that I did. I think I tend to prioritize those things more these days, and also choosing not to focus on the things that matter less, before I might think that they were, the most important things, but in reality, maybe not.

[00:50:26] Tim Yeo: I think the perspective that if you think that your life and your time here is finite, it forces you to prioritize. And it just gives you a lot more focus by doing this conversation here. Wait for you today.

[00:50:39] Nirish Shakya: I was recently reading a book called 4,000 weeks by Oliver Berkman. I'm not sure if you've come across that book. but the title of the book basically comes from the average lifespan of a human being, which is like around 80 years or 4,000 weeks. And when you put it that way, it's, it's not a long time.

[00:50:56] When in a lot of times we think our, we, our lives are unlimited and we'll be, we able to do everything that we've ever, dreamed of doing, but that is sadly not the case. And, and that's something, 1, 1, 1 of the things I'm trying to, bring more intentionality into is to focus on things that do actually matter rather than trying to everything.

[00:51:17] And I think the same can apply in our design careers as well, cuz you know, the whole, design skill sets and, and the landscape and the roles that there's, it's so vast that you won't be able to, work for every big company out there or do every, role, in the industry. but maybe it's a matter of picking the ones that do give you that energy and the joy that, that you refer to.

[00:51:40] Tim Yeo: Yeah. And, nourish, when people listen back to this, they might think that there's a perfect way that people have this figured out. I can see hand on heart. I haven't got it figured out. It might sound like I have it figured out. but I can certainly tell you hand on heart. I haven't got it figured out. it's important not to be too hard on yourself because that can lead to burnout the journeys as important as the destination that you arrive. Being so goal oriented and focused on where you wanna reach, it might actually, it might actually blind you from other more interesting opportunities, that might present themselves by chance.

[00:52:24] So being present in the moment, is as important as being enjoying that journey and being present is as important as where you're trying to reach, because you might miss on, on twists and turns in the path that will you to much more interesting places.

[00:52:40] Nirish Shakya: Absolutely regardless of where you lie on that introverted versus extroverted scale. we're I guess we're all still trying to figure things out, and fumble our way around things and yeah, like you said, we might come across things that we never knew existed.

[00:52:55] Tim Yeo: Yeah. I'll share so sorry for you. Right. the talk that I gave design leader leadership or introverts before I wrote that talk. I put everything that I learned from my career into a 20 page world document, of everything I learned as a, as a designer, as a design leader. And I started shopping that to a few conferences for up to three years and nobody wrote back.

[00:53:18] And then all I had on the side was the second, talk. There was just those four words, designed leadership for introverts. And I had nothing for it. I had nothing, absolutely no content. I had no idea, but then as soon as people heard those four words, they were like, huh, can you tell me more? That sounds really interesting.

[00:53:37] is there, do you have more content around it? No, I had nothing. I only had those four words and then I slowly realized that, all those other things that I had in that 20 page document was really my experience. And if I could deliver it in that vehicle of those four words of design leadership for introverts, that's my experience.

[00:53:56] Tim Yeo: That's my talk. That's my view of how I did as an introvert in design. and that's how that talk came about is really that framing. And if I was so closed and just kept on forcing onto my original talk, I would've got the nowhere.

[00:54:10] Nirish Shakya: Mm. So allow allowing for that emergence to happen.

[00:54:16] Tim Yeo: Yeah. So don't do what I do. Don't write a complete talk from end to end and start shopping it around. write a, sign. Opsis a short description of what is it that you want to talk about and start shopping that around and see what resonates 

Getting over the fear of being an imposter

[00:54:32] Nirish Shakya: and how did you get over your fear if you had that fear? That, for example, you're not Susan Kane, you're not, you don't have a PhD in introversion or, you haven't written a book on introversion and so on. Cuz that's, that's the fear that a lot of times I come across when I'm trying to, write an article or do a talk on something and they're like, oh, there are so many better experts than me.

[00:54:52] Who've, pretty much dedicated the entire lives on this topic. And here I am just, trying to steal all the ideas and put something together. Have you come across that?

[00:55:02] Tim Yeo: I'll say two things. Number one, everything is a remix. There is no new idea under the sun that hasn't existed in some shape or form before it is how you take the best ideas that you've learned from and made it your own. Number two people don't listen to you because you are right. People listen to you because you are interesting and you connect with, if you connect to them as an audience, your perspective on their topic is always interesting. And it's your point of view? So I encourage, I see this a lot in people who might be in industry for a short while, and they don't feel like they've learned enough to actually talk about what they do, but actually, everyone's point of view is unique and interesting. It's about how you can actually make that connect with the audience that you wanna talk to.

[00:55:59] So don't ever feel bad that, oh, I haven't done this long enough. I'm not experienced, I don't have a PhD because your experience is what makes it interesting. How you tell that story, how you share it, how you see the world from your point of view. That is what's interesting. And people wanna hear that. Not whether, you have the perfect idea, the most correct idea of how to do a certain thing.

[00:56:22] Nirish Shakya: Absolutely. And there's no one else like you in the world. And that in itself is something to be proud of to value and share that value with others. 

Tim's last message to humanity

[00:56:32] Nirish Shakya: So, Tim. we touched upon the topic of death earlier, but now let's imagine that it is your last day on planet earth. and you're on your deathbed and someone comes up to be you with a very tiny piece of paper and a pen and ask you to write something on that piece of paper, a message that will be shown to everyone in the world will put it up on a big billboard.

[00:57:01] What would you write on that tiny piece of paper?

[00:57:04] Tim Yeo: Don't forget to smell the roses with the people that you love,

[00:57:09] Nirish Shakya: Don't forget to smell the roses with

[00:57:14] Tim Yeo: that you love. I think a lot of time we focus on, I know certainly for myself early my career, I was very career focused, wanting to do well, wanting to perfect my craft and the work that 

[00:57:30] I do. 

[00:57:31] And a lot of the times we don't think intentionally about even our work peers, our teammates, the work that we do and the people that we do it with. oftentimes when we look back at the people, the work that we most enjoyed and remember it is not the work itself. It is the people that we did it with and the experience that we share.

[00:57:55] I think those are the memories that I'll take with me, the good times and the bad times, working alongside the people that I really enjoy working with. But in the moment we don't think about it. We don't prioritize that. We prioritize outcomes, business outcomes. We prioritize shipping things on time, and we don't actually think intentionally and making space and time in our day to day about enjoying the time.

[00:58:21] With the people that we work with. So I think it's really important to remember that while you're doing it, you should be having some fun as well with the people that you're doing it with, show care. It's not all just about the work that you're doing. It's about the lives that people are having as well outside the work.

[00:58:38] getting to know them as people connecting with them, because those will be the memories that I know I will take with, when I'm on that death bit. And it's not just about work, it's also making sure that it's not your life. Isn't all about work. It's also about your friends and your family, the people that you love the most outside of work, making sure that you make time for them so they can do the things with them, because jobs will come and go.

[00:59:04] Tim Yeo: But the people that you love most will always be with you. if you work career focused like me, You might be focused a bit too much on work. If you're hearing this right now, remember that, a job's gonna be a job. And outside of that work, that job that you have, there are other people around you that need your care and your attention.

[00:59:28] And those are the people that will stick with you from job one to job two, to job three and job four. So, so don't forget that, they need your time and attention as well. So don't forget to smell the roses with them as well.

[00:59:40] Nirish Shakya: Wise words from one of the wisest, people I know. So thanks for sharing that, 

Nirish's recap

[00:59:44] Nirish Shakya: Tim. I've definitely learned loads here. I think one of the things that I've learned is, that, every confident leader under the surface are still paddling, like crazy like that duck in a, in the water. so it's okay if you are struggling, if you're feeling nervous and anxious, because everyone is, still trying to figure things out.

[01:00:02] I think one of the things you mentioned was just, being okay with who you are, seems to be a, a key thing here, whether you are an introvert or an extrovert it's okay. Right. There's nothing wrong with you. just be comfortable with, with who you are, but at the same. bring more intentionality into what are the skills that might help you perform better or be more at peace or be more confident with the work you're you're doing rather than just, fumbling your way around the dark, not knowing where you're going or what you need to learn more.

[01:00:32] we also talked, talked about, design leadership and how, again, bringing more intentionality into building that scaffolding for junior designers that they can use to climb, up their career ladder, more successfully and more efficiently, having that balanced view, using a balance scorecard that allows different team members to assess candidates, regardless of whether they're extroverted or introverted and again, assessing your current gaps.

[01:01:00] Nirish Shakya: Like your team has and how you can intentionally fill in those gaps rather than just the way I was recruiting was basically just trying to fill the skills gap. and again, I think one of the themes that's come up here is to again, do things that give you energy. And, but the same time, don't be afraid to explore new things, to find out whether they give you energy or not.

[01:01:22] Right. And then focus on the things that do give you energy. no, one's got everything figured out. And I think one of the things that I'll definitely take on board is the fact that everything is a remix. you mix, uterine, no one has the original idea. they've learned from maybe their mentors or the books they've read and made it their own, because like you said, We're all very uni unique beings, on the planet and the value that you can add is uniquely yours.

[01:01:52] And a lot of people can benefit from it. So don't be afraid to share, what you've learned and what you've experienced, in your, in your life. and lastly, I think one of the reasons you shouldn't be afraid of doing that is you don't have to be right all the time. And like I said, and it's better to be interesting, and connect with people which will help and other people, learn about themselves as well when, when they hear your story. 

[01:02:17] Tim Yeo: Let's taper that a little bit.

[01:02:19] Nirish Shakya: Yeah. 

[01:02:20] Tim Yeo: That last point they, me, I think what I wanted to say is don't wait till you think you are right. Like you are a hundred percent right before you speak. You can always have the license to speak up by saying, this is early thinking. Never let the fact that you want to be 100% right to stop you from speaking up. There are ways that you can safeguard and encourage people to, to actually brainstorm and come with even better ideas.

[01:02:52] Because the important thing here is to share what you're thinking to. Just say the thing to just say it out loud, because then you have an opportunity to talk to other people and come up with an even better idea. don't wait till, till you feel like you're 100% right to speak up because that time you may never come. And from you speaking up, you then have that opportunity to, to work with other people, to develop the idea even more. And speaking up is interesting because it's your point of view. Nobody else may have that point of view. And even if they have it in them, if they're not saying it, nobody will ever hear it.

[01:03:38] And that idea will never see that light of day. It's about creating the environment where you can feel safe to actually speak up in the team, that people will actually encourage themselves to, to say, yeah, it's not fully formed, but I'm in a safe space, so I'll share it. And then we'll see where this group as a team can take that idea further.

[01:03:57] Nirish Shakya: absolutely. I think the way I see that is we're all sitting around a big table. In front of a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle, that's scattered all over the table and each one of us has one or two pieces. And we're just trying to see if our pieces fit together, right. Not everyone has all the pieces.

[01:04:15] Tim Yeo: Yep.

Finding Tim online

[01:04:16] Nirish Shakya: Great. So, Tim, where can people find you or follow you? after this show

[01:04:23] if you wanna look up the quiet achiever, search for the quiet achiever, Tim Yeo on Google.

[01:04:30] Nirish Shakya: that's without an E in the achiever

[01:04:33] Tim Yeo: yeah, if you actually type out the quiet achiever spelled correctly

[01:04:39] with my name, with my name Tim Yeo T I M space, Y E O I'll probably be the search, top search result. the quiet achiever with spelled right was about 20 grand.

[01:04:51] I don't have 20 grand to spend on the domain.

[01:04:54] Nirish Shakya: not yet. great. So we'll put all those links in the show notes as well for you to just click on and go straight to, Tim's website and also his Twitter and LinkedIn as well. So feel free to connect with Tim. if you have any questions on, as a, an introverted, design leader or designer, I'm sure, like he'll be able to help you out.

[01:05:13] So thank you so much for spending your time with me, Tim. It's been great catching up after a long time I'm sure we'll catch up again over our point of beer maybe in Adelaide or, or London when you're here next.

[01:05:26] Tim Yeo: Yes, of course. Thank you so much for having me Nirish. It was really good. 

[01:05:29] Nirish Shakya: Thank you so much for joining us in this chat. If you're enjoying listening to the Design Feeling Podcast, please do consider leaving an honest review on Apple Podcasts. It'll help people decide whether they'd want to press the play button or not. And please do share the podcast with a Design Thinking friend who could benefit from these conversations. See you