Decolonising ourselves: The journey to healing-centered ecosystems with Lana Jelenjev

Lana Jelenjev: 0:00

Settled body also settles other bodies. Hurt people, hurt people. And hurt people get into hurt partnerships, get into hurt families, get into hurt communities, get into hurt organizations.

Nirish Shakya: 0:15

Today I speak with my coach Lana Yelenyev. Lana is a consultant, facilitator, and mentor who helps organizations shape their strategic visions, and she does this by enabling systemic change centered around healing.

Lana Jelenjev: 0:31

When we look at it from a healing-centred lens we look at it from, Who do we care for? And How can we care for these people? Or How can we care for these initiatives? Or How can we care for the planet?

Nirish Shakya: 0:44

this episode Lana and I also talk about decolonizing oneself from the narratives shaped by colonization.

Lana Jelenjev: 0:52

A big part of this learning and unlearning process is also decolonizing myself and understanding of where, you know, the insecurities are coming from, where the people pleasing is coming from where the need for productivity and need for, you know, efficiency is coming from.

Nirish Shakya: 1:15

And you'll hear a lot of beautiful metaphors from Lana that make it easier to grasp some of these concepts that can seem so abstract at times. And one of my favorites is the notion of re rooting oneself to one's cultural roots, personal values and identity.

Lana Jelenjev: 1:34

What does it really mean to re-root myself? In this European land in a colonizer's land um, how can I make it as a place where I can contribute, um, from a place of grace, from a place of goodness, from a place of gratitude, and also how can it be a place where I can, yeah I find roots again

Nirish Shakya: 1:57

I personally found this conversation to be pretty healing and I hope that it does the same for you too Lana Yelenev, welcome to Design Feeling.

Lana Jelenjev: 2:08

thank you for having me.

Nirish Shakya: 2:11

Thank you for joining me. Um, I've been wanting to have you on Design Feeling ever since I started it. Um, I remember like, Carlos Saba from Happy Startup School was my third guest and ever since then, I'm like, Oh, I need to have Lana on the show. I think because you have so much wisdom to share with so many of us and I've heard you speak at so many events and you know, everything that you say, you know, it just strikes a chord in my heart and I always feel, I always leave feeling so um, inspired, grounded, and connected. back with my own self and my own roots as well. So I felt that, you know, what better way to share how I felt with the rest of the world as well.

Lana Jelenjev: 3:06

Well, first of First of all, thank you for sharing that about how, you know, how much my words have resonated and what, you know, that you've heard some of the things that I've talked. And of course, the Vision 2020 program that we were part of together. Um, yeah, I just feel so Deeply nourished hearing how, um, I've contributed or, you know, my presence contributed to you.

Nirish Shakya: 3:34

Absolutely. Absolutely. And um, i'm sure i'm not the only person who's who's you know, who's saying that so Lana, imagine that you're waiting at a bus stop, let's say in Amsterdam where you live, and the bus is like, I don't know, a minute or two away, so you've still got some time to kill. And let's say there's a five year old kid standing next to you, and the kid looks up at you and asks you, who are you? How would you answer? To that five year old kid

Lana Jelenjev: 4:05

uh, that will be a very quick one. My response would be, I'm a mom. That's my, that's my quick response to people. So I'm a mother of a 15 and a 16 year old, so teenagers. And loving, loving this face in their lives, in our lives as a family. So I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I'm a sister, I'm a friend. So those are all the relationships that, um, carry so much weight for me. And aside from that, I also show up as I am as a person.

Nirish Shakya: 4:42

And something that you speak so much about is yeah embracing who you are Um digging deep into your own self Finding what are the different components of yourself? and I know, you know, you've had some really challenging, um, events in your life. Um, you, um, were diagnosed with breast cancer when you were 37. Um, and through that journey, you went into your own journey of self discovery where you found who you really are within yourself and you've used that self knowledge to now help other people find their self and fill their cup. I would love to know how did that journey pan out for you? What was the process you went through to find yourself?

Lana Jelenjev: 5:44

so, uh, I would say I've gone through a lot of experiences in my life, you know, similar to a lot of us going through, uh, different challenges, different events, and one of the things that was really, you know, one of the experiences that was Pivotal at that time was, um, experiencing breast cancer at the age of 37, like what you said. And why it was pivotal was also because I lost my mom to breast cancer at the age of 49. Um, and a big part of my, uh, perspective at that time. was very much related to how I grew up being the caregiver to my mom when she was ill and how that roles have been reversed. And I remember there was this evening where, um, couple of, I think a couple of weeks after being told the diagnosis, I was just crying my heart out to my husband. And at that time, our kids were just five and seven. And I was sobbing, snotty, um, just pouring all the cries, and I was telling my husband, I don't want to die without the kids knowing who I am. And my husband, as sensible as he is, just calmly asked, you know, so, so how would you want them to remember you? And my answer was I don't know. And that was really a hard truth to be faced with of at that age, I really didn't know, you know, I really, um,

Nirish Shakya: 7:31

Wow.

Lana Jelenjev: 7:32

and that became for me, uh, yeah, I would say the the guidance in terms of, okay, but then how would I know? If I, if I don't know myself, how would my kids know? Um, so that set me off in the course of really understanding myself, uh, taking nonviolent communication course training helped me a lot in figuring out what I, you know, what, what am I feeling at that given moment. And also peeling through the layer of needs, you know, what do I need? Um, what would serve me what would nourish me and A big part of that also was a reframing on the language. So growing up in the Philippines, I was brought up into this mentality of service for others. Always thinking about other people. And if I think about myself, it would be considered to be, Oh, but that's so selfish of you. So I grew up with this polarity around selfishness and selflessness. And somehow when I was at that point, I was just like, but there, you know, there is a middle line. There is a line where I don't see myself as selfless, where my boundaries are, uh, what's this, are thrown out or are not, um, respected. Or I don't also want to be selfish where I do not consider other people, you know, or that I do not, uh, pay attention to other people's needs. And this is. Where the word selffulness came back to my awareness. And that was fascinating though, when I was looking back around this term selffulness, the very first time that I read and heard the word selffulness that was used was when my mom was ill. And I gave her this book from Iyanla Vanzant and she was talking about selffulness. Um, and at that time,

Nirish Shakya: 9:34

What was the name of the

Lana Jelenjev: 9:35

I forgot the title of the book, uh, I'd have to, to go through it. I just remember,

Nirish Shakya: 9:41

No worries. We'll put it in the

Lana Jelenjev: 9:42

I just remember the author's name. Um, but she was talking about selffulness and, uh, and that really came up strongly for me. And also in the practice of nonviolent communication, there is this, you know, how I meet my needs and how I meet your needs. And how we can both get into a place where we can meet, meet each other's needs. So for me, that, that is the selffulness. Um, that is the space for myself and for the others to be able to, uh, coexist and be nourished by each other. And that for me became one of the markers in which, you know, I gauge. Am I, am I still self full? Um, am I saying yes? And, and is it a full Yes. Am I leaning into my full? Yes. Or, or maybe no. Yeah. And how do I, um, express that to other people? And how do I also express what my, you know, what my needs are? So. That, that for me was one of the biggest reframing that allowed for, I would say, a lot of exploration, deeper exploration that, um, has cascaded in my life and also in the lives of my kids.

Nirish Shakya: 11:00

Yeah. So you mentioned there, um, uh, nonviolent communication. Um, could you give us a one sentence understanding of how you understand

Lana Jelenjev: 11:11

So, just a bit more of the history now. Violent communication is a communication method. tool, um, that was created by Marshall Rosenberg. And for me, I see this as a way to be able to express feelings and needs and to find ways in which we can meet each other's needs. Um, one of the things that, uh, NVC training has really taught me is when we express from a level of needs, You know, we are, you know, we are able to understand each other and where tension really resides is when we are stuck with our own strategies on how to meet those needs. So it really surfaced for me of like, Oh yeah, um, I do not, you know, the, the, the places where I get intention with my partner, with the kids, with other people is when I have a very set way of. wanting my needs to be met. So it has allowed me to also think of, okay, if these are my needs, what are the different expressions of those needs that allows for, for it to be met, not just by myself, but also by others.

Nirish Shakya: 12:24

And during this process, what kind of needs of yourself that you uncovered?

Lana Jelenjev: 12:30

One definitely is connection, you know, connection to not just to those that I love, but also to myself. Um, I remember there was this period where I just had chemotherapy and normally my husband will be home with me. Um, as I go through the challenges. You know, post chemo, um, recuperation, but at that time he had to go to work. So he left me at home alone and I was, I was frustrated. I was frustrated that I was on my own. And, uh, after a couple of hours has passed, he has not SMS me. And I was just like, why is he not even asking how I'm doing? And I think it was, you know, half. Half day mark when it just hit on me like a brick that fell on my head and I was just like, but Lana, you know, why are you waiting for someone to ask you how you're doing? And, and that really was just a profound aha moment for me of like, Why am I not doing that for myself? Why am I not cultivating that practice of reconnecting with myself, of asking myself, how am I feeling? What do I need? So that became a practice that I did for a year. So I had an alarm that I set up, you know, 6 o'clock, 12 o'clock, 9 o'clock, 12 o'clock, and 6 p. m. in the evening. And every time that that alarm from my phone rang, I would just stop, drop whatever I'm doing and check, check in with myself. And to the point my, my son, he would, you know, he was just noticing it. And then he started asking me, mama, what are you doing? And I said, I'm checking in with myself. And mind you, he was five at that time. So I started sharing what checking in means, you know, like just really. doing a body scan, understanding what's going on inside of you, what's alive in you. And so after a couple of, uh, um, probably days of seeing me do that, you know, dropping everything, checking in with myself, he came home one day and he was just like, Mama, I'm going to come home and I'm just going to check in with you and ask you how you're doing. And up until now, he's 15, both of my kids, even my husband, they still do that. We would check in with each other regularly within the day, within, you know, within our week. Um, we have a process of every Sunday, we have a family conference where we check in with how was our week? You know, what are we looking forward to for the following week? It has really cultivated a deeper understanding for myself, you know, of what it is that I'm feeling at that given moment, and what would I need to feel grounded, to feel more relaxed, and how I can share that with others. So checking in and reconnecting with myself has been instrumental, um, because then it allowed me to show up in the relationships that I have in ways that I am more present, in ways that I am more grounded, and in ways that I am within my capacity. So that also meant that I had to place boundaries, you know? There were moments, and I can still remember that very vividly for myself of when I first shared with my kids that mommy's not available right now. And that came from that space of being reconnected to myself and reconnected to my needs and, um, knowing, you know, knowing the, the Filipino culture. And, and I think even within your culture, like mothers are always, you know, you're supposed to be 24 seven available. So this, this notion of, Oh, mommy's not available right now was something very new. And, and that allowed for me to, to have that, Oh, boundaries is what, you know, what is what I can do. Um, that tells people of, Hey, this is what I need.

Nirish Shakya: 16:40

Um, and did you ever feel any sense of guilt for setting those boundaries for yourself?

Lana Jelenjev: 16:45

at first I did, I think that, that, that is part of the unlearning process, especially, you know, you've been conditioned. So, so, you know, for how many years. How many decades in how to show up for others? Um, so the guilt is there and, and from time to time it does, you know, it still shows up. Um, yet what I've learned to listen to is as the, the guilt creeps in is to ask it also of where is it coming from and what, what does it need? And, and from there, it just opens up different possibilities on how to meet those needs.

Nirish Shakya: 17:31

How did you go from there to then reconnect with your true calling? Um, did

Lana Jelenjev: 17:39

This, is the fascinating part, you know, one of the things that I realized that as I got so connected with myself, the clarity that I can provide for myself became so quicker. So it's easier for me to understand what I'm going through, the processes that I'm in, and then it just evolves to how I am with other people. And it became easier to give space for them. So the very first, you know, as I was rebuilding my career after, um, doing breast cancer treatments, the very first, uh, I would say entrepreneurial, um, services that I provided was providing clarity sessions for people. So it made it easier for me to just give space. Um, to hold space, to be empathetic and to just really listen to what is it that the other person, um, is saying and perhaps to help them and guide them into understanding their needs. Um, so it shifted from, okay, this is something that I know that I can do for myself to, this is something that I know that I can provide for other people. And Uh, I realized I was just very good at that, you know, and very, it came very easy. It came naturally for me. Um, and then that's when I started looking at it more from an entrepreneurial lens as well of, okay, there are a lot of, um, entrepreneurs around me, you know, so friends who have started their own businesses and, um, friends of friends. And a lot of them are going through this transition as well in their lives of, I just need clarity. I just need an understanding of, you know, my purpose and how I can show up. And, um, for me, it, I was that person that they can go to and basically help them filter through all the things that they have in their heads and in their hearts. And to be able to really sift through all of them and to get to get some clarity. And that's that's how it started. That's how it evolved. And as I, you know, as I moved along, um, the community aspect also got even more pronounced. Um, I reconnected also to my own practices when I was in the Philippines, how I was much of an activist, how I love serving people, how I love being in communities. So, um, setting online communities became a big part of the things that I can support other people with. And I guess if you really look at it, the work was really around connection. How can we connect from us from a level that is not transactional? And how can we get to a level of connection that is deeper and not just

Nirish Shakya: 20:30

Mm. I

Lana Jelenjev: 20:32

supported organizations with as they're creating their online trainings, their, their programs, their online communities. Um, so not just having the clarity of what the program is about, but also how can we deliver this? In ways that are engaging in setting the right relationships for people.

Nirish Shakya: 20:54

love how you started to connect the dots from from yourself in terms of connecting with yourself and then using that experience of connecting with yourself to help other people connect with themselves and also at the same time at a macro level building that community of deep connections. I love that. So I'm sure that Journey was not like a straightforward. All right, you wake up one day and you're like, hey, like I'm gonna do this Um, I must I'm sure like, you know, you must have faced challenges maybe doubts Um, I don't know imposter syndrome Um, yeah, what were some of the biggest challenges that you had to deal

Lana Jelenjev: 21:34

Yeah. I would say a big part of the challenges that I face was a lot of the mindset shifts, um, being a Filipina, Asian brown person, brown woman in a predominantly white society, uh, I've, you know, I've had my fair share of. Microaggressions, racism, uh, being seen and looked at differently. So that has really affected, I would say, my self-confidence and my belief in myself, um, that I had to also acknowledge of, oh, where is this coming from? Um, so for me, a big part of this and the, the, the, the learning and unlearning process is also. decolonizing myself and understanding of where, you know, the insecurities are coming from, where the people pleasing is coming from, where the need for productivity and need for, you know, efficiency is coming from and how, you know, like what you said, the need for it to be linear and the need for it to be in this manner, where those are coming from and, um, understanding decolonization and you know, somehow practicing it little by little, um, for myself and, and, you know, uh, reorienting myself in ways that are, uh, more connected to my culture has helped me evolve in a way that, yeah, I would say, gave me a different perspective of this growth and linear process of growth or development and how I can look at it from, uh, multiplicity. How can I, how I can see it from, yeah, different, you know, different levels and depths of where I have capacity for, um, and also understanding also that I might have hiccups along the way, and it's Also totally fine. Um, so it, it also gave me a lot of grace when it comes to, you know, what is perceived to be failures and seeing it from the lens of learning.

Nirish Shakya: 23:54

Wow, I can definitely relate to a lot of those experiences, you know, having had grown up in Nepal and I think that what I was conditioned to believe was that, um, you know, Western, um, and European ideals were superior. To, for example, the Nepalese ones or the more Asian ones. And for a long time in my life, I believed that. You know, I always looked up to the Western ways of thinking and doing and being. Um, and I think it was only more recently, um, that I started to acknowledge that conditioning in myself. Um, and one thing that I realized was that how much I've lost touch with my own roots and my own culture after leaving Nepal. Um, and how much, you know, my own origin feels so foreign to me.

Lana Jelenjev: 24:47

yeah. Oh, that, that, that, that resonates so much for me. And this is also why for, for this year, I chose re rooting as my one word intention of just what does it really mean to re-root myself in? This European land in a colonizer's land um, how does, yeah, how, how can I make it as a place where I can contribute, um, from a place of grace, from a place of goodness, from a place of gratitude, and also how can it be a place where I can, yeah. I find roots again. Um, so I, I resonate with what you said about how much of this, you know, uprooting. from one, from our motherland to here, um, has, yeah, somehow disconnect, you know, disconnected us. Um, one of the things that helped me in this process is just to also understand that our ancestors are with us, you know, wherever we are in the world, and Um, it helped me to reconnect to that part of me that somehow I thought I lost, um, and to, yeah, to understand that I bring in with me my ancestry, my lineage, my culture, uh, my lived histories, yeah, and my, not just my lived histories, but also my unhealed histories in the other, you know, in, in any place that I come into and in any interaction that I engaged with.

Nirish Shakya: 26:21

Could you, Lana, could you help me understand how are our ancestors with us?

Lana Jelenjev: 26:27

Well, in the first place, we wouldn't be here without them. You know, so we are the products of the choices that they made. Um, so in the same vein that they could have struggled and have made certain choices that we probably do not agree on. Um, Yet, you know, their main existence has allowed us to be here, you know, so in the here and in the now. Um, so for me, that is that part, right? So I am a product not just only of the struggles that my ancestors have, but I'm also a product of their resilience, of their hope. I'm the, you know, I'm the living, breathing, um, uh, what's this? Entity of, of manifestation of their dreams and their hopes. So, so for me, that, that gives me so much, um, awareness that they are with me wherever I am.

Nirish Shakya: 27:28

I love that notion because I think that's such a, um, an instant reframe to help you connect instantly with your roots. The fact that, um, you're always connected, you, you, you can't let go of that connection. Um, a lot of what you think, how you act, what you believe in is based on generations of, um, history around, yeah, how your ancestors lived and acted and did things.

Lana Jelenjev: 28:06

And, and I might, you know, like what I shared a while ago, there might be some choices that they made that feel so painful. Like for myself, I'm very much disconnected with my father's side of things. family having grown up with him not being present and the entire history that I have with my father. Yet, I also acknowledge that, um, that, that is the situation that was, you know, that he was in and And this is how for me why healing histories is very important because then we get to also take in what, what would I want the next generation to have, um, rather than for me to be coming from a place of, you know, not Uh, understanding certain patterns and, uh, seeing patterns as something that's just from me, but not just also, you know, not, not being mindful that these patterns are also patterns that have been carried on for generations. So my awareness of myself right now allows me to also filter through what is it that I would want to carry forward for the next generations.

Nirish Shakya: 29:18

So you, you've been doing a lot of work around, um, building a healing centered ecosystem. What does that mean?

Lana Jelenjev: 29:26

So for me, the premise of healing centered engagement, um, at the start, you know, healing centered engagement from Dr. Sean Jin, right, was something that really attracted me, mainly because his premise is really around, uh, salutogenesis. So this wholeness of being, this wellness of being, rather than looking at things from a pathogenic lens where we just only look at what's wrong or what's deficient. So, so luteogenesis looks at, you know, what's right and what's wrong, what's whole. Um, And this is in regards to trauma also, you know, we are more than our traumas. So I love the framing around healing centered engagement that I learned from Dr. Shonjin right after taking his, uh, practitioner's, um, program around it. And for me, I wanted to broaden it, you know, into an ecosystem's perspective of Um, healings and, you know, if we are healing centered as an ecosystem, similar to how we see, you know, the, uh, nature, how nature heals itself, how our bodies heals Try to find, you know, ways in which we can get into balance. So we are healing bodies, um, and in such a way, you know, we are also healing ecosystems. So how we interact with the planet, how we interact with each other, how we interact with our past and our future, um, these are all part of what we, you know, what we can bring in. What the, how healed we are as an entity is something that we can provide for others.

Nirish Shakya: 31:07

Because we as human centered designers, you know, we, our job is to meet the needs of the humans that we're designed for, our users, customers, clients. But healing centeredness has never really been part of our taxonomy, our vocabulary, our, you know, our lingo. Um, so I'm now trying to kind of connect those dots between human centricity and healing centricity in terms of, um, if we can put on a lens that allows us to identify, um, the, the, the, the suffering, the trauma, the, the past history of colonization and so on. Um, I think that might help us look at things a bit more differently in that it's not just about. The transactional needs that we humans and designers help, you know, the humans meet, but also there might be an opportunity for us to go deeper than that. There might be an opportunity for us to design, um, solutions that help people unlayer some of those complex histories and be more aware of their own self. And like you said, the, the generational identities that we all

Lana Jelenjev: 32:29

Yeah. Oh, thank you for, for sharing that. And I'm reminded of the, the first time that I read something around Decentering, uh, moving away from human centered design to decentering ourselves from it. And that really blew my mind. It was just like, oh. Yeah, you know, if you really think about it, we've placed, you know, human centered design as a pinnacle of how things need to evolve. But what if we, again, part of the, you know, decolonization is, but what if we de center ourselves?

Nirish Shakya: 33:09

Okay. You.

Lana Jelenjev: 33:18

and how might we design for, um, services or products or, um, activities or projects or initiatives that would allow for that restoration for that regeneration to happen. So for me, it was just like, Oh, if I move away from Human centered design and put healing in the middle. There's a lot of opportunities where I can look at it from a lens of equity, you know, like who needs to be cared for and why, um, what needs tending, you know, what, what needs our awareness, what needs our advocacy, who needs our awareness, who needs our advocacy. Um, and then if I look at it from that lens of care, then I can also think of, then how can I do that? You know, how can I show my care for these people, for these organizations, for this initiatives, for, for the planet? Um, so healing centered ecosystems for me really brings in this care as a bedrock for activism, for social change, for. possibilities because who and what we care for, we tend to act on it. You know, we place emphasis on it. We give our attention to it. So when we look at it from a healing-centred lens, we look at it from, yeah, who do we care for? And how can we care for these people? Or how can we care for these initiatives? Or how can we care for the planet?

Nirish Shakya: 34:59

What does that look like at a practical kind of level? Uh, and the reason I ask that question is I have been trained to operate within this, um, uh, ruthless capitalist system where, you know, time is money, uh, resources are limited. And we have to create as much value for our clients and for the organizations we work for by understanding the bare minimum of what is needed that we need to understand about our clients and customers. And deliver some kind of value on that so that the companies and the organizations can make some profit out of it. Can those two notions co exist? The, you know, the healing centered, um, ecosystem and then there's this other ecosystem which is purely based on profit and revenue generation.

Lana Jelenjev: 35:51

I guess there is this mindset shift that needs to happen. Like from what you've shared, right? Time, time for me is relative. You know, what might be fast for you might be slow for others. What might be, um, slow now can be fast for others. So it's like there's a relativeness to time.

Nirish Shakya: 36:10

What do you mean?

Lana Jelenjev: 36:11

So like say for example, what, what I can do in 10 minutes might be something that somebody can do in five minutes. Right? So, when we shift our relationship with time as being relative, then the projects that we take in takes also that perspective of what can we do together now? based from our capacities, based for our understanding of, you know, who needs to be taken care of. So on a practical lens, you know, given, given your question, there's a lot of mindset shifts, right? The mindset shift around time, not as something that is linear, but something that is relative, um, uh, scarcity, you know, it's like the mindset shift moving away from scarcity to abundance, you know, that there is more in. Um, that we have already, and that the answers are actually here, you know, in the near here and now. So that there's one thing that, um, immediately comes to mind, you know, in this practice of how are we bringing in the wisdom that's already currently there?

Nirish Shakya: 37:18

we can,

Lana Jelenjev: 37:20

how are we bringing in the strengths that is currently? There, because in a lot of these scenarios, you know, especially in strategy, problem solving or consultancy work where we're brought in within that, again, deficits model of there's a problem and I need for you to solve the problem. But what if we shift it to say, but what's already working well? And how can we amplify that? Because working on what's already working well actually takes shorter time than addressing a problem that's not going well. So how can we amplify what we already have? You know, how can we make use of the assets that's already there? And this is also why I love using asset based community development, because when we look at it from that lens of. There's already abundance that's here, there's already solutions that's here, how can we tap into that? And this goes very different from how we, you know, how we perceive people, especially within this, uh, lens of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, where we say, oh, you know, at the top of the pinnacle is self actualization, and not everybody gets to it, you know? But what if we flip that to what, you know, the, uh, Blackfoot nations are, um, saying that we are all born self actualized. And so we have all the wisdom, we have all the resources that, and how can we lean into that?

Nirish Shakya: 38:55

Wow, we are all born self actualized. That in itself is a powerful reframe. Yeah. Cause you know, so much of us, we grew up believing that, Oh yeah, you got to climb that hierarchy, right? Like it's only after your most basic fundamental needs as a human has been met, you know, food, water, shelter, then you can, you know, um, look at your second level needs and this and the third level. And a lot of times, um, Especially people who come from, you know, lower, you know, socio economic, um, groups. We instantly assume that they're literally just fighting at the bottom of that hierarchy, just, you know, fighting for those basic needs to be met. And it's only the elites who actually have the luxury and the privilege to, um, you know, look for self actualization and those higher level needs. But what you're saying here is just the fact that you're, you're human, you're already self actualized. Love

Lana Jelenjev: 40:03

changes the playing field already.

Nirish Shakya: 40:08

So you mentioned earlier, um, starting with what's already working well and amplifying that. Um, is there an example that you can give us in terms of maybe like one of your clients that you worked with or organizations or teams where you've gone in and helped them do that to see what's working well and to amplify it?

Lana Jelenjev: 40:28

Well, one of the things that I wouldn't say a specific client, but one of the practices that I love inviting in, and Toyota does this well, you know, this is one of the, uh, what's this principles that Toyota espouse is called Nemawashi. And Nemawashi, um, is digging around the roots. So if you are trying to. You know, we plant a tree, you first dig around the roots, you know, shake off the, the, the roots, you know, shake off the, the, the soil and create the, the, um, what's this, opportunities, um, that would make it thrive in wherever you are. want to, you know, replace or put that tree, replant that tree. So in this practice of Nemawashi, um, the practice is all about asking people already of what are the solutions? What are, you know, what are possible ways in which we can tend to a problem? So rather than saying, hey, here I come, here are my solutions, this saviorship mentality, you know, like coming in as a savior. You do it in a, in a way of being a steward, like these are a group of people who are immersed in their problems, who are immersed in your daily lives already. And it's not as if they haven't thought of solutions. They probably have thought of solutions, but they lack our resources. And how to make those solutions happen.

Nirish Shakya: 42:08

know,

Lana Jelenjev: 42:09

rather than, you know, in this ivory tower of consultants and experts and strategies, go back to the people and ask them, you know, like, Hey, this is, this is yours. You know, this is what's happening. What are the solutions that you, you know, that you, you thought of, you know, what, what are the things that you can share with us about? So this, this practicing of asking people. who are with the lived experience of, um, the, the, the situation

Nirish Shakya: 42:44

lack

Lana Jelenjev: 42:45

enables us to really get into the heart of things.

Nirish Shakya: 42:48

in

Lana Jelenjev: 42:49

And so when you go back, you know, to strategizing, to offering, you know, solutions, People already know because they have already given you ideas. They've already given you somehow a consent on, Hey, this is, this is what would work. Um, so the practice of Nemawashi for the Japanese culture, for me, I find it. interesting that this is something that we fail to do in, you know, as consultants, as strategies, again,

Nirish Shakya: 43:20

I've been a

Lana Jelenjev: 43:22

this saviorship mentality, which is very much, you know, a colonizer point of view of, Hey, you know, I came here to save you. I came here to, um, what's this to take you out of your savagery. Um, So for me, when I, when I lean into that, that offers so much possibilities and, and like I said, it takes a lot of time at the start, yet the time that you, you know, that you, you get,

Nirish Shakya: 43:52

for the

Lana Jelenjev: 43:53

um, at the end would most likely be shorter even. Because you now have something that you can bring back to the people and, you know, have their consent easily or have their vote, um, buy ins to it easily because they are solutions that came from them.

Nirish Shakya: 44:13

So if, um, there's someone listening right now who, let's say, is a changemaker, whether that's in an organization or outside of an organization, and they are trying to build a solution to improve lives, for example, and let's say they're brought in and If the companies who are paying for you to come in and solve a problem for them, what did they tell you? It's your job to solve the problem, not our job. We're too busy doing what we need to do within our roles. Why are you asking us to be part of this? How would you get them started on that journey of co creation?

Lana Jelenjev: 44:59

I would say there's also the question of, you know, if people are not yet ready to be in that space of co creation, attend to the resistance. Yeah, what, what, what is, what is it that they need to be able to get into this space? So listen out to the, you know, listen to the resistance as a place of understanding needs, understanding, um, what might be that they're grieving about as well, you know, because I can imagine, you know, for people who have dedicated most of their lives creating a system that works for them. That you coming in to say, Hey, this needs to be changed, or this needs to be upgraded. It needs to be different. There's a lot of attack to one's identity, you know, to one's, um, capacities that they've built up. So being that stabilizer who has kept this system running, listen to, The undertones of what is it that they're grieving about? What is it that they're holding on to that they cannot let go? And why is this relevant for them? So listening to the persistence allows for you to also open up discussions on what is needed at that given moment. Because yes, you know, you're there to provide solutions. And at the same time, you're also there to make those solutions happen. And that can happen when people are more receptive, more open, more understanding, and more aware of where everybody is at, you know, when it comes to bringing them along the change journey. And oftentimes it might also mean that other people are not there, you know, it's like You're There are people that we cannot bring along in the journey because they don't want to be. So then there's a question of, you know, um, how, you know, how can we have those difficult or challenging conversations with these people, especially when change is very needed.

Nirish Shakya: 47:13

Yeah, and what are your favorite ways or techniques to listen to some of the resistance and acknowledge it?

Lana Jelenjev: 47:23

Well, definitely one on one conversations are good. Facilitated conversations are also good. One of the tools that I love sharing is the Satire Change Model. And I know I've shared that with the Vision 2020 program. So the Satire Change Model is an easy, very, very easy way of plotting, you know, where are people at in this. journey of change and how might we make it visible so that people can really see, you know, like, are there a lot of people in chaos right now, you know, or are there people that are still in there, you know, in their status quo, in their comfort zone, um, and, and, you know, how can we voice the resistance? to whatever foreign element or to that change that is needed. And maybe there are people who are already, uh, are in integration and practice that, and how can we tap into these people so that they can help bring others along? So having, uh, visibility of where are people at in the change journey. Um, as an organization, as individuals, as teams, you know, so the different layers around it helps to really visualize, you know, and see, um, where can we provide support? What is already strong and how can we amplify that? And where are the gaps where we can use our strengths in amplifying those, um, in, in, in supporting those gaps?

Nirish Shakya: 48:53

Yeah, I love the status change model when he showed it to us in our vision 2020, the business program that we were part of at the happy side of school. So I'm going to include a link to that model in the show notes as well. So if you'd like to dig a bit deeper into that model. And I think one thing that it helped me understand was how different people you interact with. and try to influence might be at different stages of readiness in terms of where they might be in the journey. But what it made me realize was that a lot of times when you go in as a consultant or a designer or a change maker in an organization, you tend to go in with this one size fits all approach. In terms of, okay, here's a process I'm going to follow is, you know, it's the best process, you know, you need to follow it and without actually really acknowledging where are people. And how are they feeling? What are they scared of? What might it be? They, like you said, what they, what they might be grieving. Um, a lot of times we never really appreciated the importance of doing that because, you know, work, the actual work, you know, always took priority. It was never about people. It was just about, you know, shipping things, getting things done. So how do you even start to shift some of that mindset that, Hey, this is actually important to do this rather than just, you know, shipping and churning work constantly and hitting deadlines

Lana Jelenjev: 50:25

I'll, I'll bring that back to how we started this conversation to connections, uh, to understanding that we are all in the, uh, integrated, we are all interbeings and, um, The word that I often share with people, which is very much tied to Filipino culture, is pakikipagkapwa. You know, this kapwa in Filipino psychology means, um, our shared humanity. So I see myself in you, you see me in you. So this, this shared humanity is something that is important for us to recognize. So we might be ready. Yet, how might we know if others are ready as well? And we can only do that when we are connected with each other. You know, when we know what is going on with the other person. Um, this is also why I, I emphasize on let's shift from the golden rule to the platinum rule.

Nirish Shakya: 51:29

from the golden rule to the

Lana Jelenjev: 51:31

Yes. So the platinum, so the platinum rule is treat others in the way that they want to be treated. So we are understanding of what people's needs are now, because like what you said, we come in as consultants with this one track mind because we, we think, you know, this is what has worked for us. This is our own perspectives, right? This is our own lived experiences. Yet, if we really connect deeper with other people, we then get to recognize their own lived experiences. their own strengths, their own perspectives, their own needs, and how might we, as we provide support, as we provide services, how might we tend to their needs? Because at the end of the day, They are the ones that we're designing for

Nirish Shakya: 52:29

Wow. Wow. I think, yeah, there's, there's so much to process here that I guess conflicts with a lot of our current mindsets around how to deliver work, how to solve problems, how to work with people, um, What's the first, simplest step that we can take to get started on this journey?

Lana Jelenjev: 53:01

this, this, what I did, I would say, this is that first step to pause for us to be out of our go to patterns, to be out of our, um, you know, frames of mind is just to really take in the time to pause. They got time to reflect, you know, why am I doing this in the first place? Why is it relevant for me? Why do I need to shift? And as we get into, again, this space of deeper connection with our essence, deeper connection with what we value. Then we also get to shift our other mindsets around how we'd want to show up in life, how we'd want to show up in work, how we'd want to show up for each other.

Nirish Shakya: 54:01

Pausing, to me, seems very scary. It's like when you're paused, you're not doing any work, you're not producing, you're not being productive. And the world will end, alright, it will create all these scenarios in our head when we just slow down, pause and stop. And I know like intellectually that the world will still go on. How, how do you pause and how do you convince yourself that it's, it's safe to pause?

Lana Jelenjev: 54:31

The, the convincing, I guess, I don't have to, because I've already have lived experiences of when paused and what it did for me, right? So I have a distinct memory of why pausing became an integral part of who I am right now. So I can give an example with my breast cancer journey. The pausing that it needed for me to heal allowed me to connect with myself and I am who I am now because I took the time to dig deeper into who I am, how I want to show up, how I'd want my kids to remember me, how I want to live my legacy rather than leaving a legacy behind. So for me,

Nirish Shakya: 55:24

So live your legacy rather than leave your legacy.

Lana Jelenjev: 55:29

So for me, this is

Nirish Shakya: 55:30

Tell us more what that

Lana Jelenjev: 55:31

For me, this is me being able to know the agency that I have right now in choosing life in the way that I want to show up. And that was made possible because I paused. And I took the time to look at my patterns. I took the time to recalibrate. I took the time to re evaluate what really matters for me. So I have for me, like, I don't need to convince myself that pausing is important. Uh, um, because I've seen it firsthand from myself of what it allowed for me to, you know, to evolve into. What might be challenging and what might get in the way with that pausing is the desire to contribute. You know, the desire, like what you said, Oh, but the world is burning and there's just so many things. And that's when I, you know, I give myself the grace that's needed to say, Yes, you know, the world needs me to show up and the world needs us to show up. So for me to be able to show up in ways that contributes to the people that I care for, to the causes that I care for, is for me to be replenished myself, for me to be restored myself, to be, you know, in as much as possible, to be the healed and settled body that can settle other bodies. And that needs, you know, and that takes time and that takes pausing and sometimes pivoting. And that's the grace that I, you know, that I give for myself.

Nirish Shakya: 57:17

Yeah, I remember you saying settled bodies, settle bodies. the, the role of the body here?

Lana Jelenjev: 57:28

We are all, you know, re regulating and co regulating each other. Um, there is this Sufi leader who said, um, essentially we are just one nervous system. All of humanity is just one nervous system regulating each other. Because if I show up as my regulated state, as this settled body, it affects who I engage with. And that settled body also settles other bodies. And it's the same way if we look at trauma, you know, hurt people, hurt people, and hurt people get into hurt partnerships, get into hurt families, get into hurt communities, get into hurt organizations. So we want to also then not just look at the hurt, but also how can you look at the resilience? So if I can get into my grounded state and show up. in my calm, collected, connected, and grounded state. Then that settled body can settle other bodies. And then that creates the ripple that's necessary for all of us to show up.

Nirish Shakya: 58:48

What does an unsettled body feel like?

Lana Jelenjev: 58:55

It feels tension, it feels constriction, it feels inability to speak your truth, not having the boundaries that you can put in place, holding on to hurts, holding on to trauma so tightly. You know, that it's so difficult to move. Um, unregulated also means being either too, um, what's this, quick in judgment, quick to share anger, quick to voice disappointments. You know, so not having the time to pause and, you know, set intentions. Unsettled bodies can also show up in terms of people pleasing. phoning, um, masking, camouflaging ourselves. Um, it can also show up with coping mechanisms that even though they do not serve us anymore, but we're still doing and using them because we have not taken the time to process why are we using them in the first place.

Nirish Shakya: 1:00:07

Hmm, I love that because I think a lot of times I guess we are not aware that we might be unsettled, that there might be chaos, there might be, um, grief and hurt and we tend to just ignore all that and just get down to business without actually acknowledging a lot of those underlying

Lana Jelenjev: 1:00:31

And even that, even the, just that idea of if there's something that's already happening, like say, for example, you, you know, you, you, you, You get into a tension with a partner and then you get to work and then you go back and you go to work and you say, no, now I have to do this, that is already a sign of an unsettled body, right? You know, there's a compartmentalization that we're trying to create in our lives where This part is not important and this part needs to be more than that. How can we attend to all parts? Yeah. How can we also understand that all parts are welcome?

Nirish Shakya: 1:01:16

Mmm. And how do you also create that space where people feel safe enough to express those different parts that are currently not

Lana Jelenjev: 1:01:27

Hmm. Definitely that, like for my, my, myself, um, when I share with people, uh, my. Okay, if it's, if it's a full yes, it's easy, right? I'm like, yes, I can do this. And when there's something that's emerging for me, like how I am right now, like I can then share with people of, yes, I can do this. And at the same time, there might be some things that might get in the way of me being present for this. So I'm giving you a heads up that if there is anything that happens, you know, a day or the night before that I would most likely tell it to you and say, Hey, this is where I am at, and I might not be able to do it. So this openness in this, um, sharing of where we're at allows for, um, I would say the flexibility. to attend to what is emerging. Um,

Nirish Shakya: 1:02:26

I, I love how deep we've gone into this conversation and so many topics we've touched here. Um, now I'm going to get you to just imagine a scenario. Let's imagine Lana, you're, you managed to get yourself stuck in a desert island. What are your top three tools you'll bring into that island? Well first of all to heal yourself and heal anyone who might also end up in that island shipwrecked.

Lana Jelenjev: 1:02:59

okay. Aside from the practical, right? You would need something that would, you know, that you can hunt for. So aside from the practical, I wouldn't need anything else just myself. Yeah, because our presence, our lives are already gifts for people. So the, the, the more that we can show up as who we are and be open for that and be present for that and be able to understand who we are, um, that allows for whatever healing that needs to take place between our relationships, between ourselves, between each other.

Nirish Shakya: 1:03:41

Wow, that was definitely not the answer I was expecting but that is such a powerful answer because yeah, you're right. I think. Your presence itself is a gift and a lot of times we don't acknowledge that, you know, we think we're not good enough and we need, we need an external tool or an entity to, um, enable us to make that impact. But just the fact that you are there itself is an impact. Wow, I'm gonna, I'm gonna definitely take that away for my, for my next workshop where I'm like, yeah, just the fact that I'm here itself is You know, I'm, I'm, I myself as a gift here, right? Because so many times we arrive at these spaces, um, With this mindset of fear that people are judging me, you know, they expect an outcome of this and I need to, um, create

Lana Jelenjev: 1:04:44

Yeah, I need to perform.

Nirish Shakya: 1:04:45

pressure puts, yeah, we need to perform and people are paying for, for our time and that can, you know, paralyze us into this, you know, this narrow Mode of thinking in terms of okay. I've got two hours. I need to you know, prove myself, right? Always in this constant Journey and cycle of proving yourself and proving yourself and it's never ending.

Lana Jelenjev: 1:05:11

Yeah. And for me, it was like, what's coming strong for me is how would that shift if we just apply this notion that I am in service of life and what nourishes life. I

Nirish Shakya: 1:05:28

Wow. Love that. So Lana, um, there's so much more we can dig deeper into but we'll have to probably schedule another episode for this but um Just to kind of, you know, start to wrap up some of our conversations here. Um, what's been the, the resource that's been the most helpful for you during this journey of transformation and self discovery,

Lana Jelenjev: 1:06:01

would say there's books. Now there are books that I, my go to books, definitely. Um, and at the same time, writing, writing has really been a big, Support for me. And this is also why I'm now like, Oh, maybe can I offer something of reading a poem that I wrote? Um, which talks about already something that you've asked me about around pausing and how, um, important that is and why for me, it's something that we need. Take, you know, take for granted. Um, so if you, if you can indulge me, I'm gonna read a poem that I wrote. Um, it's called, I am not pausing, I am weaving. People judge me that I am too slow, too unaccomplished, too flighty, moving from one idea to another, or taking time to get to action. People judge me that I am unpredictable. That I am immersed in my own world, in my own sense of direction, less driven, less planning, less on track. People judge me that I am chaotic, too comfortable in emergence, less likely to succeed, too stuck in my senses, less linear in growth. People judge me for my decisions, for the pivots and the changes I made, for the potential that they saw in me, not living up to the version they wanted to see. Yet I traversed through life differently. What they didn't know was I was always in motion, in moments that I seemed stuck, unmoving, directionless. In moments that I am choosing pathways that no one dared to go. In moments when I choose restoration. In moments when I pause. I was not stopping. I was weaving. I was sensing the field of what's to come. I was tuning in with my inner compass. I was finding congruence in my values. In the expressions of my soul. In those times I failed to meet up expectations, I was meeting mine. Weaving the learnings and the griefs. Weaving the songs that fill my heart with serenity. Weaving the people and the places that make me come alive. In those times where I seemed immobile. In those times where I seemed I lacked direction. In those times where I seemed a lesser version of what you envisioned me to be. Those were the times I am filling in my shoes. Times were the moments that my body meets the longings of my heart and my mind. Times where I am expanding to fullness of being. No, I was not stuck, unmotivated. In pause, I am leaving.

Nirish Shakya: 1:08:57

Wow, love that. That is, that is such a powerful recital of a, such a impactful words there. Um, I thank you so much for sharing that, um, Lana. And if that was our first ever poem recital by a guest on a design feeling. So, uh, it looks like you might have, um, started a new, you know, trend here.

Lana Jelenjev: 1:09:21

Well, I'm happy to support whatever comes in the field.

Nirish Shakya: 1:09:26

I love that. Thank you so much. I'm sure that's going to plant a lot of seeds for a lot of us, um, as we listen to that. So I'm going to do a quick little recap here and it's going to be really hard for me because there's so much that I still need to process there. But I think for me, the key takeaway has been how. Important it is to pause and reconnect with yourself and give yourself the space to do that but the same time use that reconnection with yourself to connect with the people and the and build that shared humanity that you mentioned. Um, and this has come up, you know, quite often in that we're all in this together and we all have this collective responsibility. It doesn't matter whether it's, you know, a small project at work, um, or something that changed the world. We are all in this together in this shared humanity, carrying the shared responsibility, um, of making change and. When we're doing this, it's like so important to not just make it about the deliverables, the outputs, and whatnot, but also about, like you said, how can we use that space and time to weave those connections? How can we use that space and time to also acknowledge the hurt? Um, that people might be feeling that might come from intergenerational trauma or even at a, at a daily level, like, you know, people might be having, like, like you said, an argument with their spouse and they're bringing that into their work and trying to bottle that up. And all of that can have an impact on how they, um, operate within that space. So it is our responsibility to acknowledge that and let people exist within that space as themselves. And what I loved here was around, um, how your presence itself is a gift. You don't need external tools, um, in a lot of cases. The external tools just are complementary to your, your presence. So don't be afraid to go in with the confidence that, yeah, just the fact that you're there itself can make an impact. and also all the conversations we had around, you know, getting back to our own roots, um, and let yourself decolonize and, and de center some of the conditioning that we've, we've been brought up in to really reveal our true way of being. There's so much there that, um, yeah, I've taken so many notes here that I'm gonna have to go back and process again and again. Uh, it's not one of those, you know, simple concepts that you can, I can basically, you know, say, okay, I now understand it, now I can change my life. I think, for me, this feels like a lifelong journey and, and I'm sure you've helped a lot of people who are listening right now take that step towards that journey. So thank you so much for that, Lana. Thank you for your presence. Thank you for again, sharing your wisdom and insights here with me today. Uh, I really appreciate it.

Lana Jelenjev: 1:12:59

Thank you. Again, thank you for inviting me here and thank you for letting me share my voice and uh, hopeful that this has steered something in people and looking forward to conversations that might come out from this.

Nirish Shakya: 1:13:16

Great. So if people would like to find you online or follow your work or, um, maybe be part of some of your work, how

Lana Jelenjev: 1:13:25

Yes, so easiest way would be to check out my website, lanayelenyev. com, or, uh, linked up with me in LinkedIn, that's, that's the platform of choice, and that's also where I share things. Um, and, Yeah, those are the main two options for you to, to get to know who I am, what I do in my website. I have free tools that I give, um, uh, not just for facilitators, but also on inquiring deeper about ourselves. So there's a lot of free tools that are there in the website.

Nirish Shakya: 1:14:01

Love that we're going to put all those in the show notes for for you If you're listening on your podcast app, you can just click on the link and get straight to those resources So Lana finally, what's the next most exciting thing that you're looking forward to?

Lana Jelenjev: 1:14:13

Next most exciting, pausing again. So given the situation that I am now medically, there is a, yeah, there is a need to pause and to take in the time to restore and recalibrate and replenish myself.

Nirish Shakya: 1:14:32

And I wish you all the best in that journey and um, and I would love to have you back to further explore the self and weaving and pausing the next time we

Lana Jelenjev: 1:14:46

Looking forward to

Nirish Shakya: 1:14:48

So, what did you think of the conversation? What's the 1 thing that stood out to you? And feel free to drop me a line if you'd like to share any thoughts or ideas or maybe suggestions for any Topics or guests that you'd like to see? See you next time.