Reflecting on your year, riding the waves you’re on and being aware of the mountain you're climbing with Josie Downey and Jason Mesut

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Introduction and Workshop Overview

Nirish Shakya: Hi. This is Nirish Shakya and this is our final episode of season four. Some of you might know that I recently ran a couple of retrospective workshops with my friend and design strategist, Josie Downey. Josie and I designed this workshop to help designers and change makers reflect on the year twenty twenty three and refocus on twenty twenty four. So in this episode, I thought, Why not have a reflection on the reflection itself? So I decided to have a candid and heartfelt conversation with Josie And my other friend, product strategy consultant, Jason Mesut, who attended the workshop as a participant. We take a pretty emergent approach and let the conversation just flow Honestly and organically.

We talk about things such as bringing your body into your reflection [00:01:00] exercise and Embracing your moments from the year as they were without judging them. Playing with crazy ideas for the new year and why treating life as a mountain to climb can be An exhausting way to live. And we also talk about the power of visualizing the future and Trusting your inner self. If you're thinking of doing your own end of year reflection, I would say, yeah, don't think too hard about it. Don't make it bigger than it needs to be, and just go for it. And, yeah, listen to this episode So because it might give you some ideas and some new ways of going about it. 

Guest Introduction and Initial Discussion

Nirish Shakya: Josie Downey and Jason Mesut, welcome to Design Feeling. How have you guys 

Josie Downey: Good.

Thank you. Happy that we've wrapped up the workshops that we delivered last week, so excited to be talking about those. And I'm very much in a winding down [00:02:00] mode now or this season.

Nirish Shakya: I totally hear you. Jason, what about yourself?

Jason Mesut: Yeah.

I'm I'm in a similar winding down period, and I think I've been sharing with a bunch of people how I don't know a time when I've been able to do it like this, and I feel a bit guilty every time. I wanted to manufacture some stress and pressure, but I'm really glad I'm Taking it slowly. I've manufactured some pressures for myself, but it's been really, really helpful. And I'm really enjoying the time. I'm really looking forward to, a full on break.

Nirish Shakya: lovely. So Josie and Jason, double j, You're both design leaders.

You've you've been in the the design industry for quite a long time now. Could you, baby, tell us Who you are and what brings you here today? 

Josie Downey: Yes. So, I'm Josie, and I guess I'm a design strategist. I can't tend to call myself these [00:03:00] days, but service designer, UX researcher, and, yeah, I've been in the practice about fifteen years. and outside of the day job but also sometimes inside, I've also been quite passionate about well-being and yoga, I'm a qualified teacher, And I'm here today because we ran a set of workshops last week, trying to combine all of these different practices and and methodologies together to to run an end of year retrospective for designers.

Nirish Shakya: Lovely.

Jason Mesut: Well, and I am Jason Masutt and I, I have many different things, I suppose in a kinda classic identity perspective. so similar to Josie. I Consider myself a product service strategy consultant, as well as, an executive coach, And also, community connector curator through [00:04:00] my work with, IXDA. And I try not to shed my designer identity label, but I rarely call myself a designer these days. And I guess I've been practicing.

I don't know, maybe twenty something years, but I've had nine years. I realized nine years almost to the day that I set my own independent consultancy and now coaching practice. And, yeah, I've been starting to reflect on what I've done in that time, a wide variety of things. So it's really hard to pin down, and this is this is something that I often have to reflect on, especially in a market where Where niching is so popular.

Nirish Shakya: I'm gonna have to come back to you on what you said around you stopped calling yourself a designer. But before we go there,you were one of the participants

in the retro 

Jason Mesut: right. That's why I'm here.

Nirish Shakya: and and we, we all thought, hey, how about we just do a retro on the retro? Bit of an inception moment there. 

Reflections on the Workshop Experience

Nirish Shakya: so [00:05:00] first of all, Jason, we'd we'd love to hear from from your perspective as a participant. how was it for you reflecting back, on here and potentially also starting to look forward towards twenty twenty four as well.

Jason Mesut: Yeah. i thought it was really good. I, and I think I wrote about it, so I can't remember what I actually wrote, but hopefully there'll be some consistency.

I have a problem at the moment because I'm doing lots of, writing, and I'm not sure what I've expressed externally versus what's in my head anymore. It is I don't know why I think anymore, what I've said. but I remember being, like a good amount of space and time. Like I think you had three hours, which I thought was really necessary. I always appreciate sort of going back on on my sort of, calendar for the year.

but this time, I went to my photos and I got a bit stuck, so I didn't get to do the as full as analysis as I wanted to in that [00:06:00] session, but I thought that was fine. And, I really appreciated the movement side of things. I wasn't prepared for the movement side of things. But luckily I had the space and it was really nice just to free myself up a bit. I found that useful early in the year as well.

I think from memory, there were some really great prompts and I really, really enjoyed the, The,the the six ups stuff, or eight 

ups by every and then I did I did more than Crazy eight. That's the one. Yeah. So blah. Because I did I did lots, and that was really good, especially kinda thinking about negative things.

So, basically, Neerish had us kinda thinking about really bad, possibly evil things that we could do, for the the the year ahead. And, some of them I'd actually keep, For sure. But it's nice to kinda get into that state and apply it to myself. I think that,I'm a big fan of applying sort of design things to yourself, but but I hadn't done that so much. so that was pretty good.

I've been really really struggling to [00:07:00] Distill things. I think I mentioned that, but I did write down. I've got some things. Yeah. I think, picking a word for the year and the feelings and those sorts of things has been really, really helpful.

I think it was good for me to be there as well because and I find those sessions really helpful to, like, having that container with other people creates an accountability to actually do it. And I know that I'm gonna struggle to do further further reflection during the holiday period because, various other commitments and stuff. So I think it's probably gonna be my my most engaged session around it. So I think that was really valuable, but, also, just hearing some of the things from other people, I found, like, incredibly valuable. Like, there were some really Great insight coming from people, but I was just like, yeah.

that's really valuable for you. I can see, and, also, I I can relate to that. So I think those sorts of things are really helpful.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. I was I was [00:08:00] actually pleasantly surprised by the the vulnerability and courage that,so many attendees showed in in the space? mainly because, you some of them hadn't actually met each other before. they didn't really know each other.

So it was it was literally like in a strangers in in a room. But, yeah. I was, like I said, I was really pleasantly surprised, how quickly they they opened up. and I think it's also because, like, thanks to, how Josie kicked off the sessions with some of the the the earlier body awareness and movement exercises. my favorite one was definitely just like, shaking your body vigorously, not caring about what other people think. that really kinda popped me up. 

The Power of Movement and Music in Workshops

Nirish Shakya: But but, Josie, like, I think, I mean, it was your idea to bring in a lot of those body based movements into the workshop, which something I had never done before. where where does that come from you and what is the the value do you think that brought into the workshops or brings into a workshop like this.

Josie Downey: Yeah. and and there [00:09:00] will be some People with their listening interests, they're like, yeah, I've definitely done that before. I guess, I mean, my interest comes from, when I was teaching yoga I guess, I'm not actively teaching at the moment but yoga's been in my life for about twenty years or so and then more seriously since kind of twenty twelve and and I did two teacher trainings between the years of I think twenty sixteen, seventeen or something like that, twenty fifteen.

And, yeah, I guess I guess that practice has been so important for me and There's so much research now about the body and trauma and emotions and stress and and just the connection with the nervous system I think that's that's you know I've run well-being sessions or stress sessions so far and I always talk about the nervous And I think, getting into your body, getting out of your head, processing that, And just allowing yourself to feel those different emotions but through movement I think is just [00:10:00] one way to process our experience. I think it's becoming more and increasingly, known about and important, so yeah it was really nice to bring these two things together.

Nirish Shakya: And does it also have the same kinda impact as, it would in a an in person, Let's say yoga session.

Josie Downey: Yeah, it's interesting because i've done, I've done obviously You know online and in person and pre pandemic everything was in person. It was different for me teaching Because I couldn't see anybody because most people had their cameras off, and so I was talking, like to the ether which was interesting because I think in a I would love to do this in a physical space, like maybe, if we could run these again it would be really nice to play with doing a sort of physical, in person event just because I think there is a there is a relationship.

But At the same time, I think [00:11:00] allowing people to be in their own spaces, at home and being comfortable, there's also Something in that as well. And and I have, participated in events, or workshops, whether it's Something like ecstatic dance or something, a lot of the time I just go to free movement stuff these days. It's not even really yoga. And I just do my own thing and I process my own stuff, like in those sessions but somebody's just holding space for it. so I think it worked well. Music's always been really, really important to me and to my teaching, and I used to get a lot of feedback about it. because I just think that music for me, when I used to craft my yoga classes, I'd have a theme that I'd be working with and the philosophy behind something, and then I would craft the poses to go with the philosophy, but then or the theme, And then I would craft a playlist specifically for that with all of the arcs and things, so that and I just think that you can then Bringing people in as well to that kind of environment and have that [00:12:00] bodily awareness as well. 

So, uh 

Jason Mesut: I think spilled, the the interesting thing was, My, wife is a yoga teacher. She's been doing the same. She's been creating these amazing playlist, which I'd be using for myself and just giving up, to be honest, making my own, quite a lot of the time. And I love that about the idea that these yoga classes, what she's doing.

So I totally hear that. And I think It is really important, I think, to have that sort of that sort of tone being set. I found I found it really useful despite any challenges with the quality to to have that and and certainly online I've experienced similar. It's Having quite emotional experiences alongside the music and some movement and things and, I I personally find it very important and valuable. So I think I suggested that, one of my ideas was to make my own piece of music that would last a session or have different tracks according to tools.

I think it That was something that it just struck me because you were playing the music in that and to try and establish a tone and the direction and those sorts of things. [00:13:00] And partly just to get round, copyright issues and stuff for playing music, which is annoying, but also to, I don't know. It's an interesting challenge. So, anyway, I just wanted 

to 

Josie Downey: I No. I was just gonna say, Jason, I know that you are you're John Bates Hedge, right. I think I saw that one new post.

I did almost bring in a Goldie track for the shaky bit But I, yeah, if something else in the end, but next time, I'll remember that one.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. What would be really cool is If you could just, create an agenda for, let's say, a workshop or something. And the the the tool, for example, let's say Zoom or Meet or whatever would then play the right kind of music for the right kind of activity. So if it's, like, let's say, say, it's a solo thinking based activity, you play some like Deep contemplative music, if it's more of a collaborative, fun activity, you just pump up the energy accordingly. I think that that there's probably a marker for that actually.

Jason Mesut: Yeah.

I think it's really, really interesting [00:14:00] idea. I'm sure I've seen something similar to that. I don't know whether it was in butter or something else or or someone else or some I think we've we've been Miro, you can play certain types of music. It's not quite the same, I like the idea is that you can just have an integration. I'm sure someone's created something like that.

Little hack. it reminded me like, because, I've been running this thing called, Right Club, which is just like an, an hour where we just get on a on a Zoom and Check-in with each other and then play some music, streamed from my side playlist and right to it. And I think, playing with the mood is really interesting because I've been using music as therapy in different forms as well for, like, my my Monday mornings or other things as well. And I think, you can forget how powerful it is.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Absolutely. And, I guess it's it's not it's it's a well known fact that Music, yousinging, dancing, they they have, brought humans together for [00:15:00] millennia now. and that's how, stories were were told and translated and transferred across generations. But what what I find is that when it comes to a professional environment, we tend to just, leave the leave all those things like music, movement at the door, and it's all about the head, it's all about the thinking. we need to think our way through every problem. 

Josie Downey: Yes. And I also think that there's been a sort of Prescribed, way of being, isn't there, in the office? 

The Importance of Reflection and Achievements

Josie Downey: We We used to have uniform, used to wear a shirt and tie, whatever. I know maybe, obviously different sectors and so forth And I think pre pandemic it was still a little bit like that in terms of like you've got your work persona And and I think that was something that I personally battled with quite a lot when I was doing my I think I've always had this tension between Just being a complete hippie barefoot, [00:16:00] like totally going against anything.

I'm like moving to an island or whatever, and then like, But really enjoying, like, the the business world and stuff like that. And then or maybe it's yeah, the the yoga world and more like, the Party kind of scene and stuff. And I it took me a long time, I think, to actually recognize, well, actually, no. All of that stuff is me. You just step into it at different times.

And then I think when I did do that, I then started to to merge everything in. So I used to bring in more of the a yogi into the workplace and do the wellness stuff or take it out into other places as well. So yeah I think the pandemic as well since we've been at home and I think we're allowing a little bit more room and seeing people, and understanding that we are Standing that we are many things and that's coming a bit more into the workplace. But, yeah, there's

Jason Mesut: hot 

Josie Downey: mask up.

Jason Mesut: Yeah. I think what was interesting, I know you were talking about it early, JC, around, Having the cameras [00:17:00] off and I I can I can totally hear you about that must be a little bit unnerving? I mean, I hate doing talks when I can't see anyone, all those kind of things, but, It's quite liberating to be able to turn the the camera off and just to, like, to really, really let loose if I need to. I'm gonna close the blinds here and All sorts of things and, just just hide out. I know I was doing a, like, becoming resilient course, which had a lot of movement in it.

And And I was just able to just you know, again, we all had our cameras off except the host, and it just enabled a little bit more of freedom, Without without some of the cringe you might otherwise feel. I think with certain types of music, you can get away with having it in, like, a work setting than I have, but, like, to kinda get people to properly, be moving around is is really still uncomfortable. But, annoyingly, exactly what you're saying, like, it's gonna help you think or feel better, in the session, which is kind of what you need when you're maybe trying to access more, I don't know, more, more. I was gonna say just more thoughts, but it's more [00:18:00] than the thoughts that you need to kind of creategreat ideas, I think, some of the time and to make breakthroughs and literally get get over the the tense the tensions in the room. So it's it's a shame that it's a bit like that, and I think it takes a little bit of, bravery of facilitators to to bring more of that in.

So I Strongly support you doing that. and, yeah, I I can imagine, like, Did you have Betty Hill fame with the with one of the bets was it 

Nirish Shakya: Yep. That's me. 

Jason Mesut: I can imagine kinda getting kinda getting away with that because still a bit tongue in cheek.

It's not like you're dancing to it in some ways. I found that really annoying, but, like, it probably worked for what I needed to do because it's a little bit zany, but I think it was, Yeah. Because I because I've been at some places. I was at a con conference last year that was, sort of a, it was a it was it was a really great conference, and it was lots of vulnerabilities. Quite a large audience as well.

But there was some, like, there was a proper, like, dance off moment thing, and I was like, [00:19:00] this is just too cringey. Because it was like people go around filming as well, and I was like, no. No. No. I don't like this music, and I'm not in a club, and I'm not, I'm not in the right mindset to be really Three in it.

So I think you you gotta get the right kind of music, the right kind of setting, and, I don't know, weave those things in a way that is, I don't know, more. It's gonna push people a little bit, but maybe not not too far that they they're gonna just piss on 

Nirish Shakya: And then that in itself, it takes a lot of skills. And not just skills but also coverage as well like you said. 

The Role of Facilitation in Workshops

Nirish Shakya: Because, in in organizations, we're not used to facilitating meetings properly. We just Hope that when you, bring a bunch of people together, they're just gonna get along and, do what needs to be done. But in a lot of cases, that's that's not how it works. I think, first of all there is there's so much baggage that people bring into meetings or workshops. it could be Baggage from their life or it could be baggage from the meeting before. Right? They might have had a, I don't know, an argument with [00:20:00] someone in the meeting previously. And that can contaminate the your workshop? And if you don't give people the space to just let go of that, it can impact impact how they feel throughout your workshop as well. plus, I think, we we probably need to make facilitation a a core skill, with with any any role. I think without without that skill of facilitation, we are, Personally, I feel we're wasting so much time and energy just trying to, battle through our own kind of In a personal objectives rather than really aligning on them?

Josie Downey: I also think as well, like, as a facilitator, you've also got to allow people to feel uncomfortable as well, and I think this it especially with this kind of thing, but also probably in, design thinking or whatever, There are those moments and often a lot of the people that come to workshops, they haven't been to those workshop type of workshops before.

So, Yeah. [00:21:00] So that that's a challenge for you as well as a facilitator, And I think, I think any kind of free That that kind of movement isn't really something that's been in our culture. I mean, I remember going to this sort of thing before, At night yoga class, someone's telling me where to put my foot or whatever. But then when you start to then break out into, okay, just move, like feel or whatever, that's like weird.

I remember feeling highly uncomfortable but I guess I've done it enough now that I'm like, well, I can sit with my own uncomfortability,

Nirish Shakya: Yeah.

Josie Downey: and help that

Nirish Shakya: How might we help people feel safe to be uncomfortable?

Jason Mesut: There's a little bit of, I was just reflecting actually, like, one of the I was running some workshops This year actually further they weren't like, my typical sort of workshops on the shaping design stuff, but they were actually just, I don't know, like strategy consulting type workshops, team things. And it was in person, and I was trying to treat it with a different type of [00:22:00] approach anyway, being less militant on the agenda and all those sorts of things being new, sort of more coachy in some ways, more emergent and stuff. And, Still, I brought loads of stationery, just in case, for different eventualities, whether it's beer mats or index cards or whatever.

But they had this really huge kind of space and the this big meeting room like, bled out into, like, a hallway. So we ended up doing some sort of road mapping kind of exercise where it was all on the floor, and I made this really huge one. And so even though we weren't dancing around and we did have music at some points in in the sessions, it was physically active, like you would do with Post its and all those sorts of things. But because we were getting people kneeling on the floor and moving around, there was an aspect of kind of breaking away from that that table, that kind of big boardroom table. And so I think you can still I think it's something about using the space and the energies in different ways as well.

And, it was just it was actually really lovely to be in person again running those sessions Rather than, just what I've been used to running them online for so long [00:23:00] for so long and mastering the tools in different ways and All that. And then just to use that space and go, right, it's making a big mess, and then there's various people coming and get, what's going on here? and all that kind of stuff, and and just get them engaged in a different way.

Nirish Shakya: And after we did some movement, we went straight into reflecting back on our years. And the tool that we used was a, a very standard tool that we use in design, which is customer journey map. And we actually treat ourselves as the customer going through that journey Starting from January of the twenty twenty three all the way to December twenty twenty three. and when I was just Trying this out myself, the biggest challenge that I had I had was just remembering what I had done. because, we had to map out things like our key activities, in highlights, lowlights, connections made and so on. And And I was just like thinking, man, this whole year has been such a blur. And I'm not sure if it's the same for you guys, but You know, I I felt like personally felt like I tried to [00:24:00] cram so much into my ear, that at the end I was just like so exhausted and looking back I was like, Man, yeah, it does feel like a blur. 

Jason Mesut: It was, that That exercise should have been easier for me because I've been doing these monthly reflections things with a lady called Lily Graff and and her sessions, which have been amazing. But I didn't have, like, all of my monthly reflections to hand, and I was let's say I was went to my photos as a reference point.

I just need to spend more time there. I think it's it's something that I've found to be really valuable when I when I've done like the year compass, reflection things in the year to do that. It just takes a while quite a long time and I have quite a rich, set of things in my diet. I think we all do, you look back on it, there's so many things that you've done and it is really helpful to know all those things because you think about the people, you remember certain things, you remember the the social stuff, some of the work things and all of those. so I think it's really bad.

That's the one thing that I was kinda going, I need to go back and do this game. And I and I and I was saying before we were we hopped [00:25:00] on this that, like, Maybe I don't need to do that. What what's what's compelling me to do that audit and try to make it as exhaustive and wrapped up as possible? And I don't know. I'm I'm still wondering about But but it feels like I I can't wrap up the year until I've done it to some extent.

And, I think maybe I could just get enough value just going, what are the things that stand out to me right now in the moment? As long as I'm in the right mindset, which, Josie's Movement stuff would help with. But, yeah, that's the tension for me is, like, how complete do I need to be? How accurate do I need to be? What what other data sources could I use to prompt me and to make me get a good handle on this and then create a digital record of it because I think I've got, like, two and a half or three years worth of Miro board, yeah, Compass output that I I could build on and stuff.

But, yeah, I don't know. There's a tension there. How much do you audit? How much do you just feel and 

Nirish Shakya: mean, you said you don't call yourself a designer, but that's such a designer thing to say. 

Jason Mesut: Which 

Nirish Shakya: of it [00:26:00] need more evidence. It has to be evidence driven.

Jason Mesut: Well, see see, that's that's where I disagree. It's a certain type of class of designer, which I think oh, no. It's too provocative. That that that should be questioned more in the future, maybe, I'm gonna say.

Because it's not, a lot of designers don't do that. And they do they do trust their feeling and their senses more. It's just this kind of class of design The both of us have all of all three of us, in fact, sorry, have been, part of helping grow and develop that has created this the sense of proof and evidence and and things when it's not is it really that helpful? Does it justify a decision? Does it give us more legitimacy?

Do people trust it more? I don't know. So I'm I'm I'm I'm putting the provocation out there because I think it's an important into twenty twenty four for any designer digital designer specifically because we've been trying to fight those battles and I think failing, to be honest, [00:27:00] and I think that

Josie Downey: I I was just gonna just add on to that, that It's it's really interesting because I think, in my work and I think a lot of my Spiritual or wellness practices or whatever have been about and the things that I've actually needed And then the things that have helped me have been to counteract the analytical, you know, Um, part of my mind, which is my greatest asset as a designer, like that ability to strategize or whatever. Most of the work that I've I've done outside of it in terms of my own practices have been to undo that or to bring balance to it, that's why I get in the body because it balances out All of the time I spend in my head and or Yeah. Maybe living, sort of feeling into a bit more kind of the intuitive side or just allowing things to happen and figuring stuff out As you go, like, [00:28:00] that's just been a massive learning for me.

and that's pretty much what all my spiritual or body movement wellness exercises have been about. so it's quite interesting you say that. And then I think also the other thing, I think because you you'd had that experience and you did reflect that back in the session, I think when we set up the second session, we said, look. Hey. This isn't you know, you might not come out with, like, a roadmap for next year.

It's not really about that, but this is just, like, the start. And these this is, like, an open invitation to Start thinking about this stuff and, for me, I don't really always do this by, like, midnight New Year's Eve or anything like that. I tend to go to a pub maybe a few days after New Year. I take myself on a little date, Sometimes with friends. I actually use a journal, from some coaches called Project Love, and it's a a kind of journal that, allows me to fill stuff out through the year.

So if I actually do it, because I don't think I've done the last six months, [00:29:00] like, It makes it less it makes it a bit more difficult sorry, less difficult to think about the whole, twelve months, but I've been doing it kind of, um

Nirish Shakya: So if people are listening to this right now, well I'm assuming people are. How what what kind of, advice would you have for someone reflecting back on the year?

What are some of the The most crucial things that they definitely need to reflect on and capture. And what are some of the things that are more nice to haves and That doesn't really matter whether they do it or not. How do we let go of I guess perfectionism in the reflection as well?

Jason Mesut: It's so hard. I I think The reason it's so hard, I think there are some people who will have had some pretty pretty hard times. And I was gonna say like, do something like really try and focus on the [00:30:00] positives, the achievements and get into that positive frame of mind.

And, I could say sometimes the photos will do that, but because the photos are a distortion, like, there were distortion a positive distortion on your life often because you're usually photograph the the happy thing. Some sometimes I photograph my kids crying, which is really cruel, but, like, Mostly, they're positive things. and so it generally just reminds you that actually lots of good happened, And I'm pretty negatively wired, typically, so I I've got to counterbalance that often. So for me, it helps me to to to recognize the positive because I'll just dwell on the negative way too much. I'd also like, just reflect really on things that you've actually achieved or done because It's amazing.

It really is amazing. Like, when I do these monthly retros, like, how much I've done. And,I do I I recognize I do a lot, and it can look like a lot Yeah. Outside, but I genuinely think that lots of people do a lot.

Nirish Shakya: So Jason, how do you define an achievement? What's an achievement for you?

Jason Mesut: Oh, I guess it's just like a little win.

[00:31:00] I Yeah. That's that's that's an interesting question. Because when you when you frame it as an achievement, it's almost like the thing that you might put in your resume or CV or be, like, the what have I rocked this year? But it could be it could just be a little win, like, I don't know. It could be you got a note of appreciation from someone, or you did something that you were scared about doing, and then you did it, Or, you negotiated certain percentage of a project fee upfront and, or you got a new therapist.

I'm just now I was thinking about mine. There's there's all sorts of Things like, so I've got I've got that list over here, actually. But yeah. But it could be lots of little things. It could just be yeah.

Maybe it's like a win. I would suggest it. Like, something that's could be really small. I think I think the benefit is really think about the small things as well as the big things because Often people will be like, oh, I got this particular job or I had this [00:32:00] really successful project and, like, maybe they didn't have enough of those big things, but throughout their life, they They made some progress. They did some things that were positive for them or someone else.

And I think that all of those things are helpful to know because

Nirish Shakya: I

love that. Josie, what's what have what have been your top achievements this dear, that

Josie Downey: well, first of all, I was just gonna add to to what Jason was saying. I think one of the prompts that we had was, what have you What have you created, achieved, or made happen? big or small? And I think, as you say, I think it is really important to remember the small stuff. And I think for me if people are starting to reflect I think it's really important to have both, think about The moments that brought you joy or where you felt proud or what were the highlights because they're so individual to all of us But also what was most [00:33:00] challenging and, because I think it's really important just that this this is just you getting real with you because I like this isn't I and I also encourage people to do this for themselves and not necessarily Share it with anyone. I don't really share. I don't share my book, my journal or anything. I might share, like, an overall theme with friends or partner, but,it's for you. So it's your dialogue with yourself and it's so that you can make kind of adjustments If if that's needed. Yeah.

So it's kind of an honest an honest And I would also say it's about bringing maybe a little bit of synergy to like a synergist to If you are more negative, you tend to be more negative, how can you perhaps think a little bit harder about the stuff, the good Whereas maybe if you're a bit optimistic and you breeze over everything maybe I'll encourage you then to also dive a bit deeper into like what was challenging. And then what did you learn from those challenges 

Nirish Shakya: I think what you just said arose, Josie,[00:34:00] resonates with something that I've been thinking about a lot this Yeah. Which is around, I guess, being being in touch with my own feelings. And, there's the the feelings at a micro level in every moment, and then there's feelings for the entire year maybe. And what, I found helpful, the the the the mindset I've found helpful in adopting is, Just letting go of this notion of good or bad or positive or negative. with with feelings, there is no Good or bad feelings? Every feeling is valid. Every feeling is just an expression of your energy. A lot of times, when I've when I've found that I was actually judging my own feelings saying, oh, this is good, this is bad, I should be feeling this way, this is good, I should be feeling more of that way. it made it difficult for me to be honest with myself and just capture things as they were happening. And I think the same thing with, your with your yearly reflection. the more I [00:35:00] started to, Yeah. Judge and categorize them. it made me more difficult to be honest saying, oh, yeah.

It reflects really bad on on my myself, on my identity that, And I was feeling so bad, throughout these months in the year. Like, I'm meant to be someone who meditates all the time. I'm meant to be someone who's always calm and under control. Right. My colleagues say I'm, like, so confident and my students are, like, so calm all the time.

And that, And that that data that I've just captured on paper kind of conflicts with that identity I've built for myself, which made it more difficult for me to just, yeah, do it well honestly. And just letting go of that notion of there is no good or bad here, it's just data, right, made it so much more easy, so much easier for me to, yeah, just do it with more honesty. 

Josie Downey: And and I think also, if if you can do it with More honesty, and also you start to realize that our experience and our feelings and our emotions and our [00:36:00] thoughts are just constantly evolving, appearing, disappearing. They're transient and that is the nature of the mind. That is what A lot of the spiritual practices, teach us.

So I think it helps you also just reflect on that even Perhaps when you're in those bad moments, it might feel like that's gonna feel like that forever. But at some point, if you start to do this Right reflection quite a lot, then you realize well actually I don't feel like that anymore and then that enables you to then ride all of the moments and I think allow, And also teach other people that that's okay as well, if you're okay with 

Nirish Shakya: love them writing the moments.

Jason Mesut: I think just one thing that came up for that, and I plus one to all of that thing, it's something I'm having to learn more to manage the the multiple feelings having at the same time and also that transient nature of them. But, I was reflecting on, One practice I was doing as part of a project with, enough coach and someone else [00:37:00] who's who's coaching as well, and we were actually doing developing an app for Coaching. Anyway, it's lots of coaching related stuff in it. And we would do these check ins and checkouts of ours, like, working sessions, and they're usually, like, an hour, two hour work session. And sometimes the whole session was just a check-in, because we needed to go there.

And it was just, like, in some ways, totally unproductive, but incredibly connective. Like, it was it was interesting because because the energy can change when people share And then, you you know, the energy changed from when you checked in to when you check out. The energy changes between people as you you share what was going on for you and actually becomes a rich source of information, data for whatever it is you're working on. But also just knowing that helps you to know how someone is arriving and how, like you were saying earlier, Nourish, like, if they could be polluting that environment you'd set up. And so knowing is really valuable, but it was i don't know how this fits in, [00:38:00] but it's just like being conscious of it and then raising new awareness within the group.

It's just incredibly empowering, and and I haven't,if I go to, like, a coaching call or some other thing, sometimes you get a check-in, But, like, it's like a it's almost token. Whereas this was like, if we feel like we need to, we're gonna spend all the time on it. And I was like, and it's weird. It was beautifully weird and wonderful. Anyway, so that's what it made me think of, and I really badly miss it.

The Value of Connection in Workshops

Jason Mesut: It's really one thing I miss.

Josie Downey: I think actually that was something that myself and Naresh, reflected on in terms of sessions because the first session that we had that you attended, there were four four participants, whereas we had twelve in the second session. So it was a It was a different dynamic to manage, and in terms of timings and things like that. And we allowed people to introduce themselves to each other To to try and think about kind of timings and so forth, but then I feel like we missed out on [00:39:00] the Connection with people because I didn't know how people were arriving and so it set up for me personally, I don't know if you felt this new ish, But, yeah, I felt like just a slight difference in, yeah, the group.

So I think that's just something a learning for us is to factor in How can we because, I think from a lot of trade that was really important to me that I wanted people to be able Kind of share and, meet each other because, like, sometimes if I go to these things and there's no introductions, it's it's a different experience. And That's something I've always, you get the community side and the connection with people like from anything I've done including, more of the yoga training, Like those check ins are, yeah, sometimes the most important. And when I have run well-being sessions in the past in organisations, Often the biggest thing that people come away with is the fact that they had time to share and that was and and just to express it and for it to be heard.[00:40:00]

Nirish Shakya: Yeah.

I was doing some strengths profiling for myself this year, and my number one strength that came up for me was connection. And it's not just a strength, it's also my need as well. And I realized that, I don't do things just for the sake of doing them. I actually do them because I have this deep underlying underlying need for connection. So whether that's, running workshops or managing clients or even photography or whatever.

Right? I always have this need for connection and I think I I'm probably on the same page there. Like, if I feel like I'm being brought together in a workshop or a meeting or or a dance class, whatever that might be, if we just get straight to work without actually connecting with each other, for me there's something missing there. But then another thing I probably also realize is that maybe that's not the same for other people who might not have the same need of connection or strengths strengths of connection. some people just wanna get get down to business.

Jason Mesut: It's hard it's hard to manage it. Like, I mean, the difficult thing is that when you're holding that space, you're paid to hold that space. You're also [00:41:00] Pay to get to a a form of outcome result or direction or something. And sometimes, Some people can take up quite a lot of space because of whatever trauma is going on for them, whatever.

And, like, how how do you appropriately manage that? Because they're paying too or whatever. It's a it's a tricky one and, I'm not I'm not a master at any of this stuff, but trying to read that and to manage it and, I guess, negotiate it live with the group somehow. I don't know. Like, there's all sorts of ways which you can maybe manage it, but it's it's it's definitely attention.

I know you I can't remember the guy you had on, Nourish, recently. You were talking about facilitation, but I found it really, really interesting because it's the it's It's the learning I'm I'm spending a lot of time with, and that's right. and I just find it, Yeah. It's a difficult one because you you you know that there might be someone in the room who's expecting, Are we gonna get on with the [00:42:00] thing? And I and I remember when I was running these workshops, my client looking at me and I'm doing all this kind of setup and priming for them to somehow connect.

It wasn't like super woo woo or anything else like that. It was just kind of like, some introductions and maybe we use some metaphors as part of the introductions. All this kinda and I Consensus look see him looking at me going he wasn't quite doing that, but I could sense, like, there's some tension here. I was like, No. We're gonna do this.

Embracing Change and Overcoming Challenges

Jason Mesut: We're gonna do this. And then and then, like, and then various things happened and people kinda leave in, coming and going. It was just like The old knee would have fallen apart at that point because suddenly, like, there was all this change going on and, and I wouldn't have been able to cope with it because I hadn't thought of, I thought plan a and b and c and d and e, but I hadn't thought of g, h, j, k, all the other things. Right? I couldn't possibly, so I had to be fully resourced in that moment, and preparation was more about me than than the situation.

Reflecting on Group Dynamics and Workshop Experiences

Jason Mesut: But, even in our first session, we we had someone who was sharing and I noticed at that time you were just like [00:43:00] everyone in that session was just like We're gonna let her continue because she needed to. In the twelve person thing, that would have been much harder to sense into and to feel and All of those things. I I hear the challenge 

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. In in the twelve, person workshop, we basically paired people up in breakout rooms and Got them to share within those rooms. is that what you did, right, Josie? 

Josie Downey: Sorry. You actually cut out there a little bit 

Nirish Shakya: In the twelve person version of the workshop, we, I think we paired people up in breakout rooms and got them to share within the rooms, or was it like they just typed something in the chat?

Josie Downey: Yeah. We we had, yeah, partner work, I think, in breakout rooms. Yeah. And then we had some coming back together and sharing, because I think that worked particularly well in in the first session 

Exploring New Ideas and Creative Processes

Nirish Shakya: So after the the journey mapping workshop, we then [00:44:00] Looked at some opportunities for change for the next year, and then we took them into our ideation session. how's that for you, Jason? 

Jason Mesut: Yeah. It was, I'm just gonna I'm gonna just look back at some of my ideas. Hold on.

Yeah. It was great. I, Just because, I I I decided to fold my a three paper into lots more than than the number, so I was trying to Create as many as possible. so I have, 

Nirish Shakya: wow you got like the crazy sixteen there 

Jason Mesut: Yeah. Exactly. Just and so they're less they were less visual, but I just wanted to kinda work at pace and stuff. And so it was a really nice challenge because because I did appreciate the kind of time constraints, and You also had some nice prompts along the way to help guide or to, I don't know, incept To my 

thinking 

Nirish Shakya: scenarios. 

Jason Mesut: ways yeah. Exactly.

Like, uh, yeah. I think I think I went off in one when when you start saying about drug overdose or maybe I something there or something else for that. [00:45:00] and, Yeah. I found that I found that really, really useful. I'd be keen to do that again.

I think, obviously, I had to prime myself and through the the previous, sections, I think, did a great job of doing that, but I found found that to be probably the most, I don't know, the most revelatory, is that right words for me because because, like, I hadn't I I mean, I I kind of generate ideas by myself, but but not at pace in a structured form and not giving myself that that pressure, that I might do in a workshop with other people. It's just it's always incredibly powerful what can come out of it. So, yeah, I I I think that was probably my my highlight.

Breaking Boundaries and Embracing the Unexpected

Nirish Shakya: So, what were some of your craziest ideas? 

Jason Mesut: Um, I I can't actually work out which ones 

Nirish Shakya: all crazy 

Jason Mesut: the other ones. Make some thrash [00:46:00] metal.

I'm not 

Nirish Shakya: Why not 

Jason Mesut: or maybe I will. Who knows? Confess all my sins. Stop a few things that I thought I I well, yeah.

Stop a few events that I get myself involved in. And, and actually that was probably something I should do maybe more. Retrain as a barista. I don't know why that. Become a builder?

Nirish Shakya: I don't know. Sell all my clothes. Become a smack addict, was one of the that that was that was for your inception. Meet everyone that contacts me. Yeah. 

Challenging Personal Limitations and Exploring Possibilities

Nirish Shakya: What what what I find is that when when I'm, trying to plan my life, I tend to just stick to a reality a lot of the times in terms of like, the reality that I've created my own head of who I am and what I think I can or should do. And to me that severely restricts my possibilities. Because if I only think of myself as [00:47:00] a a UX designer or consultant, I'm gonna be operating within those constraints, within that space.

I'll I'll never really look for opportunities outside of that. And I think it it is human nature to do that because it kinda gives us the sense of familiarity and certainty and comfort and we're we're good at what we do. 

The Power of Divergent Thinking and Embracing the Unknown

Nirish Shakya: But I think one of the reasons that we decided to do the crazy eights, which is a such a, popular ex exercise in design, plus use some of those what if scenarios as prompts. What we're trying to do here there was kind of like push people beyond their Normal day to day thinking, the normal linear thinking to something a bit more lateral in diversion, or something a bit more crazy. doesn't mean that you're gonna go and, become a barista, for example, maybe you will, but, realistically, probably won't.

But I guess, what is it telling you underneath that surface? Right? What is the need that that crazy idea is trying to make you aware of, for example? I mean, you don't have to answer that question now, but I [00:48:00] guess that that was our philosophy behind it.

Josie Downey: I think it also might be worth pointing out that we had a bad ideas party before the good ideas party, so We're not encouraging anyone to go out and be a crack addict. We're just 

Nirish Shakya: very important disclaimer 

Josie Downey: But it was interesting, wasn't it? Because I think that actually some people found it really uncomfortable. And i i think engineering I always find crazy it's really hard, and whereas there were some other

Nirish Shakya: think I might have accidentally pressed recording. So could you just repeat the last bit? it's yeah. Where you said, some people found it challenging.

Josie Downey: Yeah and I think some people actually found it really challenging. I'm somebody that finds Crazy Eights really hard But we did get a little bit of that feedback, whereas, we had some exercises afterwards that then other people kind of really really gravitated towards. 

Nirish Shakya: Because I [00:49:00] guess, we're we're not

used to think divergently in our normal life because we have this, these set routines in which we live life. we wake up, we have our set routine of how we get ready for work. We have a set routine of how we get to our work, whether that's our desk at home or in an office. We have a set routine on how we interact with people, what kind of work we do, and how we finish work and get back home and have dinner with, family all at once, and then go to sleep. And we're so habituated in that pattern, which is pretty much optimized for efficiency, I guess. and I find it scary to lose that sense of efficiency for something that could be so different and unfamiliar to me.

Navigating Personal Challenges and Future Uncertainties

Jason Mesut: I think it's, maybe it's also There's been the divergent in your ideas in a project or product Service or whatever the context is, but [00:50:00] then applying it to yourself.

I mean, I think people typically get the the biggest blocks when it comes to themselves. So I can appreciate that that it's also hard. And, again, amplified by that routine, that's nature, and that that kind of They're thinking in a rut that they often have, how could they they get out of it? And to be fair, like, when I'm coaching people, sometimes when when we're exploring ideas and they're really resistant whatever reason, I might flip it like that and go, well, look, okay. So what is the worst thing you could do?

And not that the opposite to that would be the best thing, but It kinda does help to unlock it sometimes, but there's also sometimes where they're just so there's so much resistance built up. They're they're really, really stuck and they can't find their way out. And part of that might be alleviated through movement, other things, and Maybe other barriers. what do I I'm sorry. My mind went to maybe taking a snack.

I don't know. But, like, that might might do something different, but but those things, maybe having a drink, maybe having something [00:51:00] else might might tune you out in a different way. but, Yeah. I don't know. That's a that's a an ongoing challenge.

Reflecting on Personal Growth and Future Aspirations

Jason Mesut: I know that there's gonna be so many people, right now, certainly in that sort of UX product design industry who are just kinda going, right, if I have lost my job and I am gonna be struggling next year, what what do I do? How do I get out? Like, there's a lot of, Even if you realize you can potentially pull yourself out of this particular lane if you want to, even if it's right for you, To what? How are you gonna get there? How are you gonna pay for things?

There's just so much resistance around all of those things. It's there's a lot of blocks. So that that, unfortunately, maybe, yeah, maybe that's part of the the narrowing of vision that you can have and will limit your divergence 

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. And, that's that's a, again, an instinctive survival mechanism for us to narrow that vision when, we we are in danger. And, so many of us in the industry feel like we're in danger [00:52:00] because of all the layoffs and,there's just the industry, not being as open to new hires and whatnot. And yeah, it it is a difficult time for for a lot of us. Yeah. I don't I don't have an answer to that in terms of, like, how, I guess, we can be at peace with that fact, without taking on more unproductive stress and anxiety, that's that's not gonna help. Easier said than done.

Jason Mesut: I think that what, I don't know. It is it is good stuff, and, like, no, I've got I've got a belief that twenty twenty four will be bad in many ways and, maybe worse in some ways, whether it's industry or, wars or all all the things going on in the world, the [00:53:00] likelihood is that the world will have shit going on.

And, yeah, going back to what we're saying before, there will be moments of joy, and there will always be moments of joy, and there will always be There will always be some level of hope. There's always some ways out. And there's that many I believe there's many people that will find ways forward. And, whether that's making peace with AI or getting into vision pro stuff or whatever, playing around in something, There'll be people who want to support that and buy that or whatever, or it could just be, that actually maybe the opportunity to have the time out is what they needed. They just don't think they could survive it.

But I've got to believe that there is some hope there, and I believe that it could be one of those things that is necessary learning for us all.

Josie Downey: That makes [00:54:00] me feel, Again, like, that sense of riding out, right? and again, like, yeah, we're sort of in this trough at the moment or going into one. but, yeah, it's probably it's likely not going to be always like that. But, yeah, I guess it's just managing managing your state and, on top of the the practicalities. 

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. I few months ago, I did a workshop with a, a famous photographer here in the UK called Sean Davy.

she used to be a a former psychotherapist. And, we had like an artist retreat for a week, where we did a lot of group therapy sessions during the day. And in the mornings, to start our day and also in the evenings when you finish the day. We actually used to walk down to the the river just, locally and then take a tip in the river. And That itself that in itself was such a, a body based experience, where You're kind of like, letting go of [00:55:00] control of the river and just let the the water flow around you. And I know it kinda sounds a bit woo woo. But what the combination of that, somatic experience plus the the somatic therapy helped me do was that it made me realize how I've been, treating my life as a mountain to climb. And not just my life, but just anything that I would do. Like, for example, taking a new career, learning a new skill, doing photography, building a connection with a new friend. Everything was for me in my mind was visually a mountain I have to climb with milestones and peaks and then the next peak and so on. And I was like, no wonder I'm so tired because I treat everything as a mountain. Not everything has to have, like, this, milestones and a and a ladder to climb and I realised life is not just mountains. Life is also rivers, valleys, and forests, and deserts. And a lot of times, I just didn't let those things into my [00:56:00] life, and I just, like, always be climbing and climbing, climbing, and when you get to the top, you're like, okay, there's another one to climb now, and the next one. And it can be really relentless. So I think examining your own beliefs as to, Again, what does success mean? What does living and being mean to you? What's the conditioning that you've adopted? I think awareness of that can really help you because here I was just I've been meditating for decades, but none of that really helped me on on until I understood, okay, you know what?

Even meditation was a mountain to climb for me. Even meditation had goals. Right? So,. Just being aware of your internal beliefs and mindsets.

I think that that can be a really powerful

Jason Mesut: Yeah. As a as a fellow mountain maker, and hiker, in the mental world, not the real world. Um, I I can relate to that. [00:57:00] I've I've struggled, I can't I don't know if it's when it was a realization.

Kinda sad moments, because I I got my kids into, Spotting cars when we were we were doing a California trip, and they they were, like, got into cars, and they were, like now they're, like, oh, yeah. So so if we just sold our house, like, did this or, we could buy a Lamborghini and stuff. And I was like, no. We need we need our house. We need to live there.

we don't get the Lamborghini. Why can't we just Why can't what, you can't even get paid more money and stuff. Let's go. I'm not, to use your analogy, I'm not climbing that mountain anymore. Right?

And it's hard at times because, people around me, they get promoted into these really singing positions and have, like, hundreds of, people reporting to them or whatever. And and I go, oh, yeah, yeah. Like, they they got further than than me up that mountain. And I'm like, I don't want to be on that mountain. I chose to come off it.

Maybe I fell. Maybe I tripped. [00:58:00] Maybe maybe I'm just choosing different types of challenges. And, even just this past, couple of weeks where I've been trying to wind down. I could just sense myself kinda wanting to manufacture new mountains to challenge myself.

and I've just been practicing letting go because I need to. I feel like I need to now. I've done enough. I've done enough for a long time. And maybe if people are in those spots, maybe they can realize a little bit of that.

And to some extent, I don't know, I do feel like the industry was for a long time and maybe this is not what people would wanna hear, but but, we've had it maybe but I believe we should be paid more and all these kind of things. I think we're all valuable and stuff what we do as designers. However, like, to some extent, there's been, like, incredible inflation in, like, salary in rates of people over time and not necessarily because the quality got better. And maybe there is some form of regulation, but also, I think one of the difficulties is people got used to a certain way of [00:59:00] living, and maybe Maybe that's not sustainable. Maybe they don't need to live in a metropolis.

Maybe they they could live somewhere else and do some of the work. Maybe there is more flexibility, but But again, we create these boundaries around us around, like, oh, right. There's a school our kids go to or this and that. And and actually, if you dig into it. There's there's a lot of just, other people's belief systems.

You talk about other people's mountains, but not your own, not your own challenges. And what do you really want is one of the most frustrating questions to be asked. but still, what what are the most powerful questions to be asked in a sort of 

coaching know? And because it's hard to know It's hard to know what you really want when you're right in on the track of someone else's 

Nirish Shakya: and when you when you see everyone else around you climbing mountains, you think life is a mountain. whereas for you, it might be something totally different and that's okay.[01:00:00]

Josie Downey: And I think, sometimes we know. I think often we know, but we're not ready yet to like hear it, hear the voice or whatever. And actually, sometimes it takes a while or a few wrong turns or whatever, a few trips up there to realise actually okay, like I've done that, and that that's different for everybody. But I think that the reflection, why reflection, I think It's been so important in my life particularly it's helped me Understand what are my no's. not just what my yeses are but or what do I wanna say no Those ones have probably, and those choices and decisions, have probably been the most impactful, because then you sort of and that's quite hard as well, even the concept of saying 'though' again that's not really in our culture but when you can learn To say those things, to whatever [01:01:00] scenario it is, yeah, you get back on your own path, right? And

Nirish Shakya: Yeah.

Josie Downey: start listening to that voice a little bit more and that's a practice again thing as well 

Nirish Shakya: yeah And then essentially in reflection what we're doing is listening to ourselves, listening to our past selves, listening to our future selves and connecting that in the middle with your current self. 

Exploring the Power of Visualization and Future Planning

Nirish Shakya: and speaking of the future self, we then took those crazy ideas And we did some visualization and a visualization of the future self in the twelve months from now. and then we also Finish off by writing a letter from the future self to your current self. how did that go for you, Jason?

Jason Mesut: I forgot about the letter. Where is it? I did put it somewhere. I've like I've got a lot of mess in my office right now, and I don't know where I put the letter, but I forgot about the letter. I'm gonna dig that.

That's gonna be great to find. I did find it useful. I remember, writing about, related to this mountain metaphor about [01:02:00] how content I was feeling in myself and with others and other people around me and just just watching things happen and being more joyful and at ease. And, Yeah. So I am very curious about that.

That's it. But it was a good good exercise, in terms of just I I was I thought I was gonna struggle to kind of to get to the the core essence of what it was. But, sometimes You do the priming, you do the stuff, and then you close your eyes, and you can just see it. So that worked really nicely, actually. I forgot about that.

Nirish Shakya: I think one of the the participants, actually went away and Try to create that vision in in Dali, in generative AI. And she actually sent me a picture of a vision that she actually generated through Generative AI and, yeah. It was it was really lovely to see it, in a this tangible format in terms of what she wants in twelve months.[01:03:00]

Josie Downey: This is like a a future vision board, right?

Nirish Shakya: pretty 

Josie Downey: And I I do yeah. I think she said it was really Even more kind of connecting and emotional, so yeah. I love this exercise. I When I've done it in the past, it's always been quite powerful when it's come at the right moments. And there have been just surprising things, often things that I'm like, Oh, where did that come from? and I think that happened a little bit in some of our sessions. And I think, yeah, I think If you haven't done that kind of exercise to do, it's a really, really nice one because I think it it really does tap into something, I think, that future self and yeah that can also just help them set the trajectory for things

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. I mean, I have been doing visualization exercise the moment I wake up. I've been doing this for the past, few months and I find it really powerful in a way that it actually primes me for the day. So I basically kinda [01:04:00] visual my visualize myself as soon as I wake up, I visualize myself, going through the day. Like for example, waking up, going to the bathroom, getting ready for work and whatnot, and then going through my work things.

And And then I then visualize myself, okay, now I'm at the end of the day, how do I feel? And then connect with my future self to then ask for Advice or wisdom from my future self? And a lot of times, yeah, you might not hear anything but sometimes you just get this really Cool kind of piece of insights in terms of like, for example, this one time I was really nervous about running a workshop and what I heard from my future self was, just play. Which I did. I actually just, brought in this mindset of play.

And people enjoyed it. People really loved it. Now, I'm not so sure, like, how much of in my past experience plays into that, Or it's just pure intuition? I don't know. But just that slight shift in mindset really helped me approach that [01:05:00]day more differently?

Josie Downey: That is good tip for workshop facilitators. I've also done it before. I've had big sessions because I I I still get a little bit quite a lot of anxiety when I'm facilitating. And I think what you you said something earlier about Being resourced, it does come to that. I think facilitating, teaching, whatever it is, like, I think if you've you resourcing yourself, before these workshops, I took time to ready myself into the space and my energy. But, yeah, You you know, facilitation, even though you've been doing it for years, it can still be, anxiety inducing. I think that's quite deep seated in me. But At times, I have used facilitation.

I've used that, sorry, visualisation to really think about, okay, what what would that feel like? how would I feel if it goes really successfully? And I do think that that has impacted the outcome of all as well. 

Nirish Shakya: I just had a thought, [01:06:00] maybe I can do a little, bonus episode after this where I actually record myself with some of the the guided visualization for people to just listen to and try out,

Josie Downey: That'd be great. An

Jason Mesut: got that 

Josie Downey: one would be because now because now you can just listen and close your eyes.

Jason Mesut: actually have a it's not quite the same, but, like, yeah. No. There's an audio recording I've got from, someone I did, this form of liminal coaching, it was called, that I often listen to, to if I'm really stressed about something the next day, I'll listen to it before I go to sleep. It helps.

But I don't do the visualization as much as as much as you, Nourish. But I sometimes do it ahead of, like, a a talk Or or a workshop of sorts. I do think it helps to ground me.

Josie Downey: That could be a nice it could be a really nice gift, So for people to to to them to think about [01:07:00]their future or whatever, yeah, attached to this. 

Reflecting on Personal Journeys and Future Goals

Josie Downey: I've made quite big decisions off the visualisations as that I've had 

coaching. 

Nirish Shakya: what?

Josie Downey: Like, this concept of working for myself, That came from a vision that I had that was not necessarily something I'd been thinking about previously or prompted and that kind of set me off on the journey for just continuing to build my you know, I've been working independently or as a contractor for a little while, but yeah, I had I have Quite a clear vision of me working for myself at home, so I guess that's why I've been doing Happy Start Up stuff and, yeah, exploring this this 

Nirish Shakya: Nice, nice. Because I think there's there's such, such a rich well within you that we just need these prompts and tools to be able to access that well. lot of times we're just too busy just, filling the wealth with external Sources that we forget that, you know what, there's actually already a [01:08:00] lot in there. You should just connect with a stick that bucket in there. So looking back, not looking back, looking forward. We've we've done looking back. looking forward into twenty twenty four, What's the thing that's exciting you the most? What's the thing you're looking forward to the most?

Josie Downey: We can start if you like. I mean, that's quite it's difficult, but I think for me, In a way I think what I'm most interested is is because I don't really know. I mean I'm not in a contract right now. My contract I've got a few different avenues that I'm exploring so I think that there's probably going to be some Quite big shifts and changes for me in the next year and the next couple of years as well but I don't really know what that looks like yet So I guess that's what I'm also quite looking forward to because I [01:09:00] think for me, and I think something you mentioned earlier, Nareshia, is about control. And I think we're like for me personally realising that I am a bit of like, I like to know and I like to control things, I'm just trying to Not go be moving ahead so forcefully, and maybe just trying to move forward in a different energy and just kinda let, like, life lead me a little bit, and that's quite hard. So I'm looking forward to practicing that 

Nirish Shakya: I can I can definitely relate, I hear you? Jason, what about you? What's what's the thing you're looking forward to the most?

Jason Mesut: Oh, I I totally totally hear that control thing and the the freedom and stuff. And I'm gonna be seen that more.

I've been doing a lot a lot this year, but it got to a point where I just let it go too far. And, I didn't enjoy the procrastination. I didn't want it. So it was more procrastination, put pressure on myself, but, yeah, I'm gonna be a bit easier on myself. Um, [01:10:00] I I have, I have at least sort of three in person talks and some workshops related, to do.

And they're like my markers in the year. They're gonna take me to some interesting places. One place, I don't know if I'm allowed to announce yet, so I won't. But, I'm very excited about going to this place. another place which is meant in a nice conference as well in a in a city that I do love as well and I think I'm looking forward to doing a different version, like a vastly different version of my talk and also potentially potentially I say potentially because Either either just like just publishing whenever I get to my book or just leaving it.

I've got I've got to just kind of like let it go because it's just causing me quite a lot of angst not not getting it done. So, I'm very much looking forward to that. And if I like visualize happiness of various sorts, it's probably to to imagine kind of giving people physical copies of it and hearing people having used it in [01:11:00] in ways that are helpful to them. And, also, I'm looking forward to all the interesting people I'll get to work with next year. Some of them are people that I'll be in a coaching relationship with.

some of them are gonna be fellow coaches in supervision, which I'm excited about. And I'm hoping to do more sort of deeper collaborations with people as well. And,that's something that I'm really looking forward to because it's something that I realize how much I miss. it's hard being independent. You are working with people a lot, but you are still often by yourself working with others, if you see what I mean.

So it's something that I miss from, working in an agency consultancy environment. so I'm looking forward to that. And, yeah, what else? I think, Again, just to Josie's point, just all of the different things that I can't even imagine happening that I [01:12:00] know will be positive and will happen. And, like, I do believe that there will be some bad things that are gonna really test me.

I know that. Like, I've had fair share this year. now I'm gonna have more next year. I just I'm just looking forward to practicing how I manage that and seeing more good, having more joy, and 

Nirish Shakya: Love it. 

Concluding Thoughts and Looking Forward

Nirish Shakya: I've recently been exploring the concept of, free will versus determinism. And I'm starting to believe that, free free will probably is an illusion here, like, Sam Harris puts us in his so many of his lectures. And maybe the future is already determined. And as depressing as that might sound, it's actually giving me a lot of peace in the moment saying, you know what? I don't need to worry about what might or might not might not have in the future because it's all determined now anyway. I I don't have any control over it.

But what I do have control over is Living now, being here now, whatever I'm doing now [01:13:00] without worrying too much about the outcome. And I found that that's yeah. That's definitely given me so many so much peace, I guess, on top of the the the mindfulness exercises that I already do. So, yeah. I would say check it out. so now let's cast our mind. Yes, sorry, Josie.

Josie Downey: I was gonna ask you what you're looking forward to.

Nirish Shakya: I might have some big changes coming up this this year. I am actually thinking of maybe like, doing a little experiment of, moving to Nepal for a bit. being a bit closer to my grandmother and my and my parents.

And at the same time, bring some momentum back into some of the The work I wanna do there with schools and and kids there around yeah. There's a lot of things that I talk about in this podcast around how do we help them be a bit more self aware, gain a bit more creative confidence, and get a gain a bit of sense of what gives them joy and meaning, And how do we help them find their mountain, [01:14:00] or their value, or their lake to explore ' rather than just try to climb someone else's mountain? So, yeah, that's where my head space and my vision is at the moment.

Josie Downey: Very exciting.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Cool.

So casting back or casting our minds forward, imagine it's your last day on earth. You are on your deathbed. What would that future self of yours, the future Josie and the future Jason on their last day on planet Earth. What would they say to you right 

Jason Mesut: I got one.

Nirish Shakya: I know it's a loaded question, so take your time.

Jason Mesut: that's beautiful. I think mine's just around I'm glad that we made the leaps that we did, or The jumps when things [01:15:00] were scary.

Nirish Shakya: Love that. Amazing. Thank you very much both. Yeah. So if you're listening to this right now and if you are Considering doing some reflection on the year, some planning, I would say go for it.

It does not have to be This massive mountain, again, using we're using the metaphor of the mountain to climb. It could be something as simple as you can do something like in half an hour, or even, as you're drinking your next cup of coffee, just cast your mind back on the year and just see what stands out for you. It could be like, what made you feel happier, like, more joyful, or what kinda give you more energy, what suck to drain energy out of you. Even doing that level of micro reflection can be really beneficial then do nothing at all. And and see if you can then, yeah, use that to, again, See, what are [01:16:00] some of the things that you wanna do in the future that might give you more energy or give you more joy and do less of the things that's gonna do the opposite, as in suck energy out of you, and suck joy out of you. and keep iterating, rinse and repeat. Any other tips, advice from from you, Josie or Jason?

Josie Downey: I think don't don't think too hard about it. I think, as you say, just whatever comes up is usually insightful in itself. there's also also, lots of Resources and things, I think, Jason, you mentioned the compass, that's come up a lot this year. I'm seeing a lot more people doing it, which is Great as well. So there are lots of resources. You can just Google kind of prompts and 

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. I might pop some links that Jason has put together, I might pop them in the show notes, if that's okay. 

Jason Mesut: Yeah.

I don't have anything else to add. I think, yeah, it's good to do the reflection, but [01:17:00] Also, yeah, maybe just don't over commit for next year. Just because it can kinda create a major strain when you can't do all the things you You promise if you go into a kind of, like, resolutions mode. So,

Nirish Shakya: a checklist 

Jason Mesut: if yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You can kinda create a lot of stress and pressure and and stuff, and And sometimes there might be ways to articulate things that are more directional, just More achievable and directional. Remind yourself of those rather than, like, super hard things like, losing ridiculous amount of weight or, Giving up completely alcohol or smoking or whatever, which which all good things to do if you can, but if you can't do it fully,

Nirish Shakya: And Jason, you've also curated a really good collection of, reflection tools for designers which you've called, the series, Shaping Design. and I hear there's a book coming out soon.

Jason Mesut: [01:18:00] Yeah. Thanks for giving me pressure again. Yeah.

Nirish Shakya: Another thing to add to your

Jason Mesut: I think I think I the book was coming out the the last time I did a podcast with you. I've really struggled to kinda get it done for various reasons. I've got get my ego out of the way and, release it in some form soon. Who knows when don't ask me when please

it's

In the future,

Josie Downey: I i would I would love to be one of those people that you hand a physical copy to.

how's 

Jason Mesut: yeah I get it. Bishop Isaac.

Nirish Shakya: Great.

Awesome. So we'll definitely, look out for an actual copy of that book soon, hopefully next year. but if not, yeah, let let the universe show you when. Don't put too much pressure on you on yourself. everything has at the right time and place. 

Great. So on that note, I just wanted to, yeah, thank everyone for listening today. this was meant to be a very emergent, conversation just among, you three friends We've just been through a a yearly reflection workshop [01:19:00] together, both as participants and facilitators, and we just wanted to just, regurgitate some of our experiences from both sides and and I think there's there's a lot that, came up for all of us there. And if you are also thinking of spending some time, Reflecting, journaling, planning. There's so many resources out there. We're gonna put all those links in the show notes, that Jason has kindly curated. but if you are looking for some one to one help or one to one coaching, you can literally reach out to any one of us, Jason, Josie, or myself.

we'll put our, contact details in the show notes as well. So, yeah, if you'd like to work with any one of us, please do reach out and we're more than happy to speak with you, over the next few weeks. 

Well, that's it for season four. Thank you so much for being part of my conversations this year. I hope they've helped you know yourself a bit better and Reframe some of your perspectives to [01:20:00] increase your creative confidence and meaning.

I might do a little bonus episode over the Christmas break to help you reflect on your year and visualize twenty twenty four the way you'd like it to be. Until then, you can catch up on any episodes that you might have missed. And it would mean a lot to me if you take two minutes during this holiday to leave an honest review For me on Apple Podcasts, that'll really help get this podcast out to more people in the new year. Have a reflective and rejuvenating festive break, and see you in twenty twenty four for season five of the Design Feeling podcast. 

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