Navigating the digital world with intention, heart and purpose with Katja Forbes

Nirish Shakya: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to season four, episode two of the Design Feeling Podcast. My name is Nirish Shakya and I'm your host for the show. My guest today is someone I've been wanting to have on podcast ever since I started it. It's my good friend Katja Forbes.

Katja is a design leader who's been recognized as one of the top 50 Australian professionals, top 10 women disruptors, and as one of Westpac and Australian Financial reviews, a hundred women of Influence. And she's someone who I've looked up to throughout my design career. In this episode, Katja and I have a candid chat on the challenges of leading through change as an entrepreneur and a design executive. Katja openly shares her wisdom from our own experiences and why it's more important than ever for us to know and stick to our values and navigate the digital landscape ethically.

Shivaun: [00:01:00] This is the Design Feeling Podcast with your host Nirish Shakya. 

Nirish Shakya: Hello. My name is Nirish Shakya and I'm a human-centered designer, educator and coach. And this is a podcast for well, human-centered designers and innovators and problem solvers who tend to forget the human within the. The conversations you'll hear will help you increase your self-awareness and creative confidence so that you can make the impact that gives you the joy and meaning that you seek.

Let's get started.

Katja Forbes, welcome to Design Feeling. How have you been?

Katja Forbes: I have been Do you wanna reel answer like,

Nirish Shakya: Give me the, gimme the real answer.

Katja Forbes: I feel, I guess we're here to talk about feelings. So, um, often people [00:02:00] ask me how are, how have you been? Or how are you? And I. Feel like a lot of us just go, fine, thanks. Or busy or, you know, whatever other throwaway because it's basically somebody's asked you how you are as just part of social interchange rather than perhaps really being interested.

Um, and I always pause when people who care about ask me how I am, um, because I actually, I wanna give a, a genuine, real answer. Um, and not something that just is like foreign thanks through my teeth. Um, cuz you know, I, I'm operating in an incredibly complex organization at the moment, um, where some people really get what I do and some people really don't.

And it's exhausting. I've gotta say it's exhausting. Um, and this has been true, not just, not just of the organization that [00:03:00] I'm, uh, with at the moment, but also, you know, previous organizations that I've been with because I think design for. Some people means that we turn up with our crayons and they're surprised when we don't.

Um, and us having to have that conversation about how we don't just turn up with crayons and we actually have a whole lot of tools and techniques in our tool that helps us. Yeah. With Post-It. No, they expect us crayons and

Nirish Shakya: and post-its

Katja Forbes: yeah. Oh, aren't, are we gonna do some stuff with post-its? Isn't that what you do?

And I

Nirish Shakya: some crazy eights.

Katja Forbes: Um, the democratization of design has changed the landscape forever, which is fascinating and provides us with wonderful enthusiasm, but, um, also people who don't really have the skills and expertise and are a little bit outta control. So I think in answer to your question, how I am, um, I'm fighting [00:04:00] the good fight.

Um, which would, you know, indicate that I am taking actions for a cause that's worthy of fighting for. Um, it's got a cost always. It, it always has a cost. Um, as you go and stand up for yourself as a design practitioner in a room full of engineers or senior leaders who don't understand you or whatever it is, every time you stand up and, and speak up, um, you know, sometimes it can feel like a paper cut.

And if you do that over and over and over again, well all those paper cuts, all of a sudden you're bleeding to death. And if you don't realize that or keep a, a tab on how much energy you're expending on this, you know, you can burn out. Um, so I'm very cognizant of where I put my energy and, uh, how I, how I get others [00:05:00] to.

Come and be support mechanisms for me as well, um, in these kinds of

Nirish Shakya: Mm-hmm. 

Katja Forbes: So that's, that's how I am. I, I'm operating in a very complicated ecosystem, requiring me to do things differently for each type of interaction that I have. So I'm doing a lot of context switching and that's also, you know, that's, it's great because it's exciting for me, but it's also, you know, it costs energy.

So you've gotta be aware of that and make sure that we're all managing ourselves. I hope that's a real enough answer.

Nirish Shakya: I love it. I mean, I only just ask you one question and you've already dropped so many sound bites there that I really wanna unpick. Uh, and we'll definitely, uh, be unpicking a lot of those, uh, things you mentioned. But before we actually get there, um, I'll start, uh, my episodes with [00:06:00] a question for all my guests.

Imagine that someone made a movie out of your life, Katia. What would you like the opening scene to be? Describe that opening scene to us.

Katja Forbes: The opening scene is me striding out on stage in front of an audience of 10,000 people who are interested in what I've got to share with them. That's my opening scene. We start at the end, you know that classic story plot where start and then work to how.

Nirish Shakya: So you walk onto the stage, there's like thousands of people you know, looking at you with anticipation. What are the first words that actually come out of your mouth?

Katja Forbes: I start simple often, like the way that I was like, hi, I'm [00:07:00] Katia. Like that's like a super interesting fact. And then I take a creative pause,

Nirish Shakya: All right. 

Katja Forbes: I arrive, 

Nirish Shakya: Let's imagine now, that the movie has then cut to somewhere more in the beginning of your life, someone like one of your origin moments. Um, what scene would the movie then cut to you

Katja Forbes: oh God,

there's so 

Nirish Shakya: before it all started?

Katja Forbes: many origin moments. Oh, um,

Nirish Shakya: What jumps out?

Katja Forbes: probab probably me. I'm wondering, is it a career moment? Is it like a, is it a university moment? Is it a school moment? Like how far back do we go here? Um,

Nirish Shakya: What would you remember when you, when you deathbed? Just going straight there.

Katja Forbes: uh, I [00:08:00] feel like I would definitely remember my very first B M X, which had, it was black and gold and had back pedal breaks, um, which is means that you could do skids. And the memory that comes to me with that is with a bunch of neighborhood kids at the park and we built a jump out of dirt and everybody was like going, trying to go over the jump and people were falling off.

And kids, some kids were scared and I was like, nah, get outta my way. I wanna have a go. Um, And I just like remember, and it, the jump must have been, I don't know, like half a foot high. It wasn't big, but as a child, you know, things are always enormous. And I just remember, you know, riding as fast as I could at that jump, trying to get as much air as I could and then doing an awesome skit as I landed it.

So yeah, if that was gonna be a, that would be a pretty good opening scene. I guess. That I'm, [00:09:00] somebody will, I will run at things hard and I don't have low gears. I don't have any low gears.

Nirish Shakya: So that's where your kind of passion for extreme sports 

Katja Forbes: Yeah. 

Nirish Shakya: also do ice hockey, right?

Katja Forbes: Yeah, until I got old. So, um, I, it's no surprise, I'm turning 50 next year. Um,

I was playing ice hockey in Australia and I find it the reason why I was doing things like, uh, risk, you know, fairly risk sports like ice hockey and, you know, equestrian sports jumping and, and dress and that sort of stuff is because I find that I can't switch off unless I'm a hundred percent paying attention to something else.

Like I can't switch off from my mind chatter. And so I, hockey you have to be a hundred percent paying attention to what you're doing and how you're doing it and the game and you know, everything. Cuz it's, it's the, [00:10:00] I think it's the fastest sport. It's the fastest sport that humans play. Um, you've gotta be a hundred percent on that.

And I find that really, um, It's liberating me from the mind chatter of all of the things that I could be thinking of. Um, I played at the Singapore women's team here, the, the national team, which is hilarious. I was, I was never gonna go to the

Olympics, nor am I, national team quality. Um, but I did, cuz there's not a lot of women playing ice hockey

Nirish Shakya: I didn't even think there was eyes hawking in Singapore.

Katja Forbes: is ice hockey in Singapore. I've played a friendly match against Malaysia

Nirish Shakya: Wow.

Katja Forbes: the, the Jaho Tigers. Um, yeah, so I've played with the Singapore National Women's team and um, I miss those sports because, you know, I've, I, I'm getting older, I've got injuries that I need to look after and so, you know, now I'm doing less intense sports, but still then going, oh, what do I do with my mind chatter?

Cuz you [00:11:00] know, riding a bike you, there's a lot of room for mind chatter still.

Um, you know, going to the gym, there's a lot of room for mind chatter.

Nirish Shakya: What's, what's the mind chatter happening right now for you,

Katja Forbes: Uh, the mind chatter for me right now is making sure that I'm thinking nimbly enough ahead to say intelligent things. When you ask me questions that I've got a few things in the back catalog that I can just grab and go, oh, that one will work for that.

Nirish Shakya: but then if you are, if you're playing ice hockey right now, you wouldn't have, have that 

Katja Forbes: There's no space for it. There's just no space cuz you have to focus on staying upright. You have to focus on being in the right position. You have to focus on where the puck is. You have to look at where all the other players are. You need to make sure that you are going in the right place. And then there's the hand-eye coordination of trying to make a puck move around with your hockey stick.

You know, there's, there's a lot going on. A lot.

Nirish Shakya: But then how would you bring that mindset to, for example, something like this or your work or your [00:12:00] meetings?

Katja Forbes: Uh, well, I've received some feedback on that. Um, so I had a people leader, um, who said that, you know, I was the only person who she ever coached who, um, played ice hockey. Um, and she said to me that it's obvious that I am incredibly passionate about what I do and I care deeply about what I do. Um, and she feels like when she was trying to coach me, she says that you've got this really, this huge flame inside you.

Like it's a, like this massive burning flame. And whenever she's trying to coach me to try and get me to go one way or another, she's like, I have to interact with that flame. And it's, you know, it's hot. It's like really burning hot. Um, and it's. It makes me challenging to coach, I guess because like the way she described it, she, [00:13:00] she said, it's like we're standing on the ice hockey rink and I'm standing here with a bunch of flowers that I'm trying to give you and you are coming at me in your ice hockey gear to try and, you know, run me into the boards because that's how hot you burn.

And, you know, I'm just, I'm just trying to give you some flowers. My

little coaching chips. I loved it as well and it really, um, it made me see some, like, it made me see some blind spots. It really made me see some blind spots to how I show up, how I engage with people, how I work with people. And so I bring a lot of that intensity to what I do, cuz this is who I am

Nirish Shakya: Where does that come 

Katja Forbes: be a different way. Um, uh, wow. There's probably a lot of places that it comes from. I'm incredibly competitive. That's, Probably not a positive place that it necessarily

Nirish Shakya: That could be positive thing.

Katja Forbes: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I, it depends on [00:14:00] if it's competitive in, if I make sure that I keep it in the context of, um, we all win together and I'll help you and help us, um, rather than the competitive of, I will trample the weak and hurdle the dead.

Now that's not positive competition. That's just, you know, that's just, yeah. Brittle. Um, so I think some of that comes from, from being competitive. Some of that comes from having incredibly high standards for myself. So much so that I think that they're a mental health problem. Um, I do, I have, I have super, super high, uh, standards that.

I am my own harshest critic. Nobody can ever criticize me harder than I can criticize myself. Um, so there, there's a lot of work that you have to do to be able to put the inner critic in its box to make sure that it doesn't impede your progress. [00:15:00] Uh, and so that's, that's definitely, you know, something I've always had to, well, that I have become mindful of, um, and perhaps wasn't paying as much attention to it before.

So I think it does, it comes from, it comes from super high standards. It comes from being very competitive and from knowing that I've got the necessary skills and abilities to make a difference and have impact and add value. Um, sometimes, you know, I need to add value even though the organization doesn't really say that, you know, the value that I have to add is what they need.

Um, yeah, so it's. That, that's where I think that comes from

Nirish Shakya: I mean, Carter, like, you know, we've been friends for the past, what, 10, 12 years? 

Katja Forbes: more. 

Nirish Shakya: met you was in back in I X C A in Sydney. Um, and then, um, you know, we've met at several conferences. The last one was, uh, interaction 16 in Helsinki in 

Katja Forbes: mm [00:16:00]

Nirish Shakya: when the sea was frozen in Helsinki. Um, and we're kind of talking about sauna the way you taught me how to pronounce it correctly.

Katja Forbes: yes,

Nirish Shakya: Um, and you know, throughout this whole, you know, decade plus of knowing you, I've seen that competitiveness. I've seen the high standard that you set for yourself. And I've seen you, you know, go on to achieve, you know, big things for yourself and your team, you know, from being a, a UX designer to design leader to, uh, someone who actually started their own company.

You know, you started, um, consultancy called Sift Shift. Shift or Sift. That's right.

Katja Forbes: sifter. Yes.

Nirish Shakya: Sif. That's right.

Katja Forbes: got it.

Nirish Shakya: Uh, which we then, you know, he sold to, um, design it. Um, and, uh, and now you are in Singapore doing big things as well. Um, so, and you mentioned there around your own, you know, you are your biggest critique, uh, critic, not critique critic.

Um, so how, how do you manage that [00:17:00] self criticism and not let it, you know, get over you?

Katja Forbes: You

Nirish Shakya: the reason I ask is, you know, looking from the outside, like, there's so many people like myself who wanna be like you, right? Uh, who wanna blaze that trail. Um, and now like I'm hearing from you that you, you know, criticize yourself.

Katja Forbes: of course. Um, What is it? The Dunning Kruger effect? That the stupider you are, the smarter you believe you are. Like, but the, you know, this, the, they're, they're proport uh, proportionate. Um, I, how do you manage that? Like, you actually have to be really intentional, um, and be able to sit with yourself, sit with yourself uncomfortably feeling like you haven't done enough or [00:18:00] you've done wrong.

Um, and unpack that either, you know, with tools like journaling, you just write it all out. Just write the whole thing out, and then once it's out, it's out and it's gone. Um, the other thing that I always call to mind is my husband Graham says to me, um, your worst day is someone else's best day. You know, cut yourself some slack.

Um, and that, you know, just sort of resetting maybe my level to go, actually, you know, I probably wasn't that bad. It was, it was probably all right. Um, is a, is a helpful thing to remember as well. But, uh, you have to be intentional cuz the inner critic is powerful. The inner critic is loud, the inner critic drowns out, um, you know, can drown out 10, uh, [00:19:00] positive voices.

Um,

I s yeah, absolutely. And I, and very, um, dedicated to seeking feedback. So we're going through feedback rounds at the moment, um, at work and, um, You know, we, we have a system. We use that, that's, it's a standard feedback system where things that I've done well, things that I can improve, any other thoughts.

Um, and people are generally, they're good at writing nice things about you. They're not necessarily as good at writing, you know, Delta feedback. But I am very dedicated to getting people to give me feedback. So for this round, I've got 20 individual, no 21 individual feedback items from people. I sent it out to like something like 35 people and then sent them reminder emails that I'd asked them for feedback.

It'd be really super if they could do [00:20:00] it for me.

Um, 

Nirish Shakya: the wording you put in there? What? How do you actually ask for that Delta? The feedback for improvement.

Katja Forbes: uh, well I, there's three things to fill in, um, and I always say, but cuz it is when, when you want somebody to give you feedback. Sometimes you just have to either give them permission to give you feedback that's not, oh yeah, you're great that there is a delta. You can say, please tell me where I can improve.

Cuz that's the only thing that I, that's the only thing that I can hear that, that will help me get there, um, is if you help me. Um, another way of reframing it, and this is particular for Singapore as well, but I think it works in most contexts. Um, it's, see it comes across as quite confronting, um, especially for my Singaporean counterparts when I say to them, have you got any feedback for me?

Cause it's very direct. Um, and not all Singaporeans is super direct like that or a comfortable being super direct or super confrontational in those situations. So I flipped it a little bit to, [00:21:00] rather than say, have you got any feedback for me? I've said, have you got any advice for me?

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. 

Katja Forbes: that's a completely different framing, but you still get the same thing usually is what they want you to do differently.

Or what they wish was different about, um, the interactions they're having with you or the way that you're leading. So I ask for advice now, um, more than feedback. Uh, and I'm, yeah, I'm very, I'll chase people cuz I, I need to hear, I need, um, I need both that positive reinforcement to shut that inner critic up.

So I've got like, you know, 20 feedback points here where I can say, actually you are saying internal critic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Terrible, terrible. But I've got 20 people here saying great things about me. I feel like I can balance my inner critic. Like it takes 20 to one, like the ratio is big. Um, but you can like, you know, get that positive reinforcement through feedback mechanisms[00:22:00]

Nirish Shakya: And what's the most meaningful. Piece of advice that you've received recently?

Katja Forbes: some very meaningful feedback that I've received. It's, I guess, less feedback and more a coaching tip was at any point in time where I have. Or I feel like I have space, like there isn't something tactical that I immediately need to do, that I should take that time with gratitude and use it to think, it to think strategically about something that I might like to do or something that might need attention.

But because of all of the, you know, burning platforms that we always have, I haven't given attention. And, you know, people will talk about side of the table projects and things like that. Usually they're just things that are more strategic that they really, people really wanna do, and you'll get a lot of value outta them.

Um, so the, that was some advice that [00:23:00] I received, um, which I am trying to put into practice.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm.

Katja Forbes: I'm reading a lot of books at the moment.

Nirish Shakya: yeah. So basically, uh, rather than using that space to kind of run off and do the next thing on your to-do list, you basically use that time to stop and think more strategically.

Katja Forbes: very. And, but very intentional. Like be super intentional about it. Yes.

Nirish Shakya: And then do you ha then have to have something prepared to think about,

Katja Forbes: Well, that would be smart.

Nirish Shakya: I thought was, what would you think about 

Katja Forbes: That would be smart. It'd be like, oh, what have I got in my back catalog, you know, of things that I can think 

Nirish Shakya: things to think about.

Katja Forbes: Um, I think, uh, yeah, there's, there's a whole lot of things that you, I think you probably could keep a little list of, of things that are interesting to you, things that you wish you had more time for.

Um, so as soon as the time presents itself, you can look [00:24:00] at that list and go, woo. Yeah. About that. Uh, I could do that. Um, and it can be work related or it could be non-work related as well. There could be some sort of, you know, pet project that you want to do, um, that you just. Keep putting on the back burner because it, you can't make, you can't find a way to make it a priority.

See, you know, there's people, people talk about prioritization, but we're in control of our priorities. We are in control of the things that we put at the top of the list. And, um, when I talk to people, I sort of changed my language from saying, oh, I haven't got time for that. Um, to, I can't make that a priority right now.

Like, I, I need to tell people that, you know, I, I am choosing not to do this because it's, that's what you're doing. Whenever you don't do something or you deprioritize something, you're making a conscious choice to not do it. And there's gotta be like, there'll be reasons and all of that around it, but, um, you're making a conscious choice.[00:25:00]

And so I try to communicate that, you know, they might not like it, but it is a conscious choice. And, and I, there, there isn't enough capacity for me to choose that as the priority. There's other stuff that's more important. Um, but yeah, keeping a little list of, well, here's things that I've got for my thinking time.

Like if you are reading a book or you've read a, an article or the, like, it could be as simple as, oh, somebody sent me an article and I can take some time to read it now. That'll be interesting. Um, I think those are the sorts of things that I like to plug into those admittedly small spaces of, of thinking time.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Yeah. And I'm sure that also helps you with, um, you know, curating and collecting, um, things and materials for your speaking circuit.

Katja Forbes: Oh, absolutely. Like I need constant input. Input, input, input. Always input. Um, I've done, I've did my Clifton strengths recently and input is one of my top fives. Like

[00:26:00] I thrive on it. Yeah. But I'm always like, I'm always trying to feed my intellectual, um, hunger with more and more stuff. And I've taken to reading, you know, I, I, whenever I buy a book that's like, it's not a fiction book, it's not reading for pleasure book, it's a book that has got stuff in it that I wanna use or remember. I read it with little, um, legal sticky tabs, those little, you know, sign here and all of those little legal

sticky tabs. And as I go through the book, I keep the little, the pad of sticky tabs as my bookmark. And as I go through, I just stick on things that are interesting. Um, and

then when 

Nirish Shakya: them as well.

Katja Forbes: well, I should, but I don't, I should, I'm a designer. I should color, should have some meaning. Um, but it doesn't, um, I just use whichever one [00:27:00] pleases me at the moment and.

Yeah, well then what I, what I do is I finish that book and then it's got a hedgehog of sticky notes sticking out the side of it. And I'll go back, I'll go back through it and I'll turn on my auto ai and I'll read out the thing that I was interested in on that page and just say a couple of ideas about why I thought it was interesting.

And then I've kind of got my digest of the whole book in a transcript, a, a digest of what I found valuable in that book, in a little transcript on auto ai. So if I wanna go back and revisit it, or maybe included in a talk or, you know, or something like that, I've, I've captured my thinking at the time and it hasn't just, you know, gone straight out again because my brain is a finite space.

Like if I put something in, something else has to go out and I won't know what's gone out until the moment where I need to use it. And I go, oh, why don't I know that anymore? Usually people's names.

Nirish Shakya: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I, I love that technique cuz. Um, so do you do that mostly with like [00:28:00] paper books or do you also use um,

Katja Forbes: It's a physi. Yeah, I can only do it with physical, but hang. Let me, let me just go and get you the example so you can see. Okay. So this one, as I was saying, I've already told you I've been reading team of teens, so you know that. But you can see this is my little, all of the things that I found useful and interesting in this book, and then I can go back to them and I go, all right, well, what was this one? Um, oh, this is about Nelson and how he crafted an organizational culture that rewarded individual initiatives and critical thinking as opposed to just simply executing commands.

So what was really interesting about that particular point was how we empower people in our organizations, how I can empower people in my team and reward them for showing initiative. Um, not expecting them just to follow out, follow whatever I say. I want them to, uh, feel like I have autonomy and, uh, and the ability to make decisions, um, and not to get penalized or punished for them.

So, and so that's, that's what I do. And then I'll go through and I'll find

all of 

Nirish Shakya: do you basically [00:29:00] record yourself saying that and then transcribe it?

Katja Forbes: into Otter ai. No, I, Otter AI does the transcribing for me. I don't know, but that I will use AI tools wherever I can use

AI tools for productivity. Absolutely.

Nirish Shakya: Mm-hmm. Okay, cool. Loving it. Loving it. Um, I, I, I have something similar cuz um, in the past I used to, you know, read or listen to books but then never really take notes. Especially cuz you know, I love listening to books when I'm like, for example, driving or on the train or something, or doing my, you know, chores.

Uh, but then you can't really take notes while I'm, while you're doing that. Um, and realize that you finish the book and then you move on to the next book and the next book and then you don't remember anything from the last two, three books you've read. Right? Um, so now what I've started doing is focus more on quality rather than quantity.

So rather than, you know, always trying to kind of rush to the books. I basically, for example, even if I'm like, let's say washing the dishes, I'm listening to, uh, an ebook or something, then I would basically stop [00:30:00] and then pull out my phone and then pull up a notes app and just like, take notes of like what I've just heard and like what, what it means to me.

And then at the end, I have like this note full of like all my highlights or notes from the learnings from the book that I can just quickly revise and it just kind of helps me remember things.

Katja Forbes: Pretty much, yeah, same, same method, slightly different execution, but, and, and with the intent to get to the same result, actually retaining it, uh, and being able to use it.

Nirish Shakya: mm Absolutely. Cool. So Katya, uh, you've had amazing career, uh, that I'm sure like, you know, I'm very jealous of and I'm sure a lot of people will be very, um, not jealous, envious of, um, um, so throughout this career you've had, what's been the most, the, the scariest moment in your career? What's, what's scared you the most?

Katja Forbes: There's so many, so many. When I started my own [00:31:00] company and I got my first full-time employee, so. And then I was on the hook for paying that person every month so that that person could live and pay their mortgage. Um, that's incredibly scary. Having the responsibility for other people's financial lives on your shoulders is, is terrifying in a way that I don't think you can understand unless you do it.

Um, and that, and also knowing that, you know, the, cuz it was my own business, um, my personal property was at risk,

if at all went south. My, you know, partially owned flat was, uh, was at risk if it didn't work out, um, or if I couldn't make it work. And so it was absolutely terrifying to watch that person sign a contract that like, Bound me to delivering [00:32:00] for them as much as it bound them to delivering for me.

Nirish Shakya: So you hired a permanent full-time employee.

Katja Forbes: Yes, I, and then, um, I then hired seven others, um, following on. Yeah, I know it was, it was a very, it was a rapid expansion. Um, but I had enough, I had enough income to cover what I was doing and I'd done the maths to make sure that what I was charging, the day rates that I was charging those humans out at would cover the, uh, salaries that I was promising them.

And what I did with them is I sat 'em down and I showed them the maths, and I said, this is how I have arrived at this salary that I can offer you. It is equal to the number of days that you are willing to work for me in a year, multiplied by the day rate that I can charge you out at. Um, minus, you know, your holidays, your sick leave or your entitlements and things [00:33:00] like that.

Um, and this is, this is so, this is what we can afford because if I pay you more than that, you can see the maths that I don't have enough income to support it. And I think being super transparent about how the maths of doing or running a services business works, um, at least made everybody feel like they understood my decisions and they understood why I was, uh, offering what I was offering.

Um, and it was, you know, it was up to them if they didn't want to accept it, they didn't wanna accept it, but seven for seven said yes. So, you know, clearly I at least explained it well. Um, but yeah, that's, it's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying being responsible for people's financial wellbeing. So,

Nirish Shakya: mm And why did you start decide to start your own business?

Katja Forbes: Oh, it's not a sexy origin story. Um, no, I just, I wish I had a sexy origin story, but it's

Nirish Shakya: Doesn't need to be.

Katja Forbes: um, well, it isn't. So I was working for [00:34:00] Commonwealth Bank at the time as a contractor. Um, and what they had asked me to do was run one of the biggest contextual inquiry projects of my career. Um, we ended up doing 107 observations of humans doing work in 14 locations around

Nirish Shakya: That's massive.

Katja Forbes: in uh, you know, um, I think 76 different, completely different job roles.

It was huge. It was a huge piece of research. And so they offered me this role, this, this research project, and I said, this is amazing. I would love to do this, but I'm gonna need more people cuz this is more than a one person job. Uh, and can I go and get my own people? Cause I don't really want. The people that you have got on offer right now in the organization.

Um, and they said, yeah, sure you can, you can do that and you can charge us for the people that you bring in. Uh, but you are gonna have to be a P T Y L T D registered company because otherwise we'll have [00:35:00] superannuation liability and we don't want that. I was like, alright, I can make a company so that we don't have superannuation liability for Commonwealth Bank with my company.

So Sure. What do I call it? And that's, it was born. So yes, the origin story of, um, avoiding superannuation liability for my client.

Um, yeah, it was, but it was, that was a great project and it got us off to a flying start and we delivered in spades for. The bank and we then, uh, were asked to do another project and another project and another project.

And then all of a sudden I had seven people working for me, um, and a couple of interns. And I was like, okay. Um, I think I'd probably better get another client because if Commonwealth Bank decided they don't want us anymore, well this whole thing is done and dusted. Um, and then so we went and got a second client and then a third and then a fourth.

Um, and, you know, built it up [00:36:00] from there into something that was, uh, I think at the biggest it was 18 people. This is, that was when we were

Nirish Shakya: Oh wow. That's a good size.

Katja Forbes: Wales, um, corporate website.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm.

Katja Forbes: Um, but I also, you know, another really terrifying time was doing the maths and realizing I did not have enough income to support the number of humans who were working for me.

And so I was gonna have to downsize, which meant that I had to have conversations with people where I said, I'm sorry, but I don't have a job here for you anymore. And that's also, I think it's, it's less frightening and more just heartbreaking to have, to have that to, to be in that position and to have to have those conversations.

Nirish Shakya: do you prepare yourself for a conversation like that?

Katja Forbes: Um, oh, you make sure that you are clear and kind, so really know what it is that you're gonna communicate. Know [00:37:00] the points that you have, that you have to get across so that people understand what is happening. Make sure that you can articulate the process that you're gonna run from the moment where you say those awful words, I'm sorry, you don't have a job here anymore, to what happens next.

So everybody's super clear on that process and that you are kind as you possibly can be, um, in terms of managing their exit from the organization so that it doesn't feel like. They're being cast out or thrown in the bin or whatever. And um, I got a text from one of the people who I made redundant after I'd done it.

Um, just saying that she really acknowledged that that was a really difficult conversation and that I'd handled it with real grace and she was grateful for all the opportunities that she'd got in working with me. Um, and, you know, would, would work with me again in a heartbeat. So that made me feel a lot better.

But still, you know, it's a hard and difficult thing to go through. Um, [00:38:00] also have tissues in the room to hot tip have tissues, not necessarily for yourself. Like, cuz I don't think you get the luxury of crying being the person who's doing the, um, the redundancy communication rather than being the recipient.

I think the recipient of the redundancy communication gets to cry, but I don't think the communicator gets to cry. Um, but yeah, people will cry so, you know, have

tissues. 

Nirish Shakya: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then you gotta create that space for that to happen as well, if that

Katja Forbes: Yeah. Crying people crying. Like, I've had some, I've had some people crying, and sometimes it's because they're hearing feedback that isn't what they expected, and it's hard for them to hear and sometimes they cry. And as the person giving that feedback, um, and making sure that it, you know, it lands in a way that's hopefully productive, even though they're upset by it, I can't become the person [00:39:00] comforting them through that difficult set of feelings.

Um, I can be there with them to support them. Um, but I, I'm not there. Like, oh, here, I'll give you a hug. Everything's fine. I mean, who wants a hug from somebody who just gave them difficult feedback? Nobody. Um, but it is, it is my job to make sure that they're supported. I have a duty of care to make sure that they're supported.

Through all the feelings that they feel when they hear things that they don't necessarily want to hear or that make them, you know, not feel good about their work or, or their contribution. Um, to get them to the other side where they can make friends with it in a way and figure out how they can learn some lessons from it and go forward with some positive next steps.

And that's, that's the job when, when you're, um, I guess in that sort of circumstance. But, and, and giving, you know, talking about [00:40:00] scary things to do, giving people feedback that's hard is also a scary thing to do as a leader. And it's, I'm pretty good at it now cause I've done it a fair bit and I've got a lot of, you know, tools and techniques that help me do it in a structured way.

But again, it's like you've gotta be clear and you've gotta be kind. Um, and that it's not a. It's not a situation where you're trying to make somebody feel bad, but the net outcome might be that they still do feel bad, but that's not your intent. Um, and your job is to help them find a way to use what they're hearing to come out the other side better.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm,

Katja Forbes: Again, tissues

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Absolutely. Uh, another probably very important design tool to let, let the feelings, you know, happen in the

Katja Forbes: Yeah. That's, it's, it's very tempting to jump straight in and like, try and make people [00:41:00] feel better. But when you are the person who made them feel bad in the first place, not through intent, but through the fact that the thing that you had to tell them wasn't like a super positive thing. Jumping in and trying to make them feel better, it, um, diminishes the value that you just gave them in telling them things that were deltas.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Yeah. Argo, I guess also, um, you are not trying to control their emotions, right? Uh, it's not for you to control. Um, there's only so much you can do from your point of view to facilitate a certain conversation, but the actual outcome of the conversation is probably like beyond your control, and you're not trying to control that.

Katja Forbes: Yeah, there's the only things that we have control of is the way that we respond and react to whatever happens to us. We can control ourselves, but nobody else. You can try and create the conditions for better response through kindness and clarity, but you can't control whether or not somebody is going to, um, you know, get angry or get [00:42:00] upset.

Um, that's, that's up to, that's up to them and how they control themselves.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Yeah. So Katia, I'm gonna fast forward some bits here. So, from there, your company Sift, uh, got acquired by Design it Australia, and you actually became the MD of Design Australia. Uh, and then you left Australia and moved to Singapore. Um, so lots of big changes. They're big transitions. Um, throughout these different transitions you've had, what's driven you, what's driven you to make those decisions?

Katja Forbes: Adventure. A sense of, a sense of adventure, I would say is the one that's brought me to Singapore. Um, saying yes to adventure and also yes, to a bigger, harder, more complicated job. Um, that was, that was that one. The decision to sell my company was because I [00:43:00] couldn't do it by myself anymore. I just couldn't.

I was, um, It's a classic situation of like, you've gotta put the oxygen mask on yourself before you help others. I was useless to my team because I was, I was just burned out from being a sole director of a small, you know, medium sized, small to medium size, um, design consultancy and having all of the, you know, all of the leadership, uh, well that's like burden is a, is a negative word, but all of, all of the leadership responsibility on me.

Um, and not really having a huge group of people to turn to and say, I dunno what I'm doing. Can you please help me? Um, which is, which is where the CEO syndicate came in, which is a peer networking and support group. It's basically like CEO therapy. Um, so that, that was what, that was what made me decide to sell.[00:44:00]

Um, but then I realized that a managing director of a large global strategic design consultancy is actually a sales job. Um, and, well, I'm very good at sales. Uh, wasn't, it wasn't super exciting after three years. Um, I felt like my ship had sailed far from shore into a destination not of my choosing. Um, and I loved the time that I spent at Design It and the people that I met and worked with and, you know, it was, it was a fantastic opportunity, um, both, you know, financially and, and from a career growth perspective.

But yeah, to, to chase an a different adventure, um, was really the spark to, to get me to come to Singapore. And the role that I'm in now is a global role. I'm. So I am trying to, and my team, me and my team are trying to create [00:45:00] client experiences on, uh, digital platforms for clients who are like the governments of countries or multinational corporations.

Um, um, really big end of town notfor profits. And we're not only just trying to do that in a, uh, for, for those sorts of extremely large clients, but we're also doing it for an organization, um, that's nearly 170 years old. So it's gone through all of the possible, you know, legacy systems of banking that there is.

And also, you know, to add even more complexity to that, we're trying to do it in 50 markets around the world. Where our unique selling proposition is actually in emerging markets. Uh, so for example, oh, you wanna do business in Nigeria? We got you. We're already there. You wanna do business in Southeast Asia?

We can help you with that. So it's a very complicated and challenging role, and that is really, uh, [00:46:00] why I took this job, um, for big financial services, um, with a, a large hub in, uh, Singapore. And it has been all of the possible challenges that I could have imagined and some that I, some that I didn't, moving countries.

So it's not the first time I've moved countries. So I've moved to London back in 2001. Um, stayed there for 10 years and came back to Australia. I didn't think that I'd leave Australia again. Um, but then this opportunity presented itself. I was headhunted for the role and I was like, oh, well, What I, what do I do?

And so I spoke to my now husband, but not husband, then Graham and I said to him, um, so, uh, they, this is a really amazing job, but if I go, if I go for it, they're gonna want me to move to Singapore. So I guess it's a bit of a non-starter cuz we just moved to Orange and um, he was chasing wine making as a career.

And you know, there's not a lot of that in [00:47:00] Singapore. So,

uh, 

Nirish Shakya: for Graham.

Katja Forbes: well what I said to him was like, I suppose it's a non-starter. And he said to me, well, I've never lived in another country. That'd be interesting. So I was like, shall I chase it? And he's like, yeah, see what happens. See where it goes. And then, you know, nine interviews, two psychometric tests and five references later.

Um, I got the job and I was like, okay, so for you to come as my dependent, we have to get married. You're all right with that. He's like, sure. So, no, we got married. Um, it's, it was fine. Like, you know, marriage wasn't important to either of us, but it also wasn't a problem to do it either cuz we've been together for quite some time, owned property and all of that sort of stuff. Um, the Singaporean government is a little bit, um, uh, traditional of mindset.

So legally married spouses are the only ones who can be dependents. Uh, they will consider [00:48:00] de factos, but I think there's a lot more hoops to jump through. It was just easier to get married. So we did, um, and then came here chasing some adventure. Oh, thank you very much. Yes.

Nirish Shakya: Nice. Um, your latest proposition, um, is that of being a, an ethical navigator. Tell me what does an ethical navigator actually do?

Katja Forbes: Oh, an ethical navigator helps people. In a absolute sea of emerging technology that's incomprehensible, to ask the right questions to ensure that we don't end up with un unintended consequences that are negative, and recognize that not all technology is inherently good or gonna have a [00:49:00] good outcome. And to really closely in inspect how biases are being perpetuated, how our, our negative societal norms are finding their way into.

This sea of emerging tech, particularly in generative ai, um, in machine learning, in algorithms that make decisions for us. Um, there's so many unintended consequences at at that we just don't, I ask the right questions about. And so my intent as a navigator, an ethical navigator, is to help people frame up those questions, to ask, to help them understand that there are questions to be asked.

Like you can't just sit back and allow all of this just to happen. Um, and make sure that when we [00:50:00] use them to make decisions about humanity, human, human, human lives, and societal outcomes that we do it with, uh, an intent to create societal benefit, um, not to unintentionally create societal detriment.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. And have you always been keen about ethics in design and tech, or was there like a particular turning point that made you, um, you know, change 

Katja Forbes: Yeah, go in that?

direction. Um, I think I've always been super interested in, um, inclusivity in tech. So, uh, worked for Royal National Institute of Blind People back in 2008, maybe 2009. Um, and from there on, as soon as I got a firsthand understanding of how savagely difficult the digital world was for people who had all kinds of disabilities to navigate.

Not [00:51:00] because, you know, their disability was this the problem, but because there was no thought given to including them in the platforms that were created. Um, I've always been a proponent for, um, inclusivity in design and coming from starting with sort of the pan disability inclusivity lens, that quickly goes out into more concentric circle, like more of those concentric circles of, well, what about, um, gender?

Uh, what about marginalized people? Uh, what about people who are in groups that are discriminated against? So that having that inclusivity lens has naturally found me talking about ethics, not necessarily as, um, obviously probably in my earlier speaking career. Um, but as I then, I think it was probably about 2019, 2018, 2019.

Um, We did some work at Design it called Trusting Invisibility, [00:52:00] which was to, as interfaces are disappearing, to actually start to look at how can we trust algorithms, how can we trust artificial intelligences? How do we trust machine learning? And in doing that work, I started to really look at bias in systems, um, on all of the different spectrums, gender biases, marginalized groups, biases, people of color, um, people who have disability, and bringing that kind of scrutiny to all of the work that I was doing.

Um, and the more that I looked, the more dodgy it is, the, the more, the more unpleasant things I uncovered. Um, and the more I was disturbed by the fact that, uh, I wasn't seeing design colleagues and, and industry colleagues. Asking the right questions. Um, you know, there's, there's so many [00:53:00] projects.

Nirish Shakya: of questions

Katja Forbes: Just, you know, just because we can, should we, is, is this the right thing to do just because we can do it, uh, just because we can make money out of this?

Is it the right way to make it? Who's being disadvantaged in this? Is this decision actually advan, uh, giving me an advantage? Um, is it making, is the way that I'm designing this or doing this actually making somebody uncomfortable? Is it manipulating people in a particular way? Am I using behavior design for evil?

Um, you know, these kinds of things and they, I'm pretty ethical in the choices of projects and companies that I've worked for. Um, I could have made my little startup company. Absolutely fly from the get go. Like with bucket loads, bucket loads of money coming in because a gambling organization, um, that started up in Australia at the same time I was starting my company, I met their managing director at a networking drinks.

And [00:54:00] he is like, oh, would you be able to, um, come and run this design thinking workshop for me? And I was like, well, that sounds great. Who do you work for? And he was like, I'm working for blah, blah, blah, a galing company. And I said, I'm so sorry. That's a moral red line for me. I can't engage with you. Um, and then watch that company go on to fund the coffers competitor. Uh, but I,

Nirish Shakya: always someone that's gonna pick up the work.

Katja Forbes: I wouldn't have been able to live with it. Like I couldn't have lived with myself. Like I would've just been a hypocrite and a liar and I couldn't have lived with myself. So yeah, I'm, I'm at peace with that decision, but I also look at it and go, that was a lot of money. Say lavie.

Nirish Shakya: So as an ethical navigator then, what is currently pissing you off the most in the industry?

Katja Forbes: Um, the infringement of intellectual [00:55:00] property rights, um, the treatment of our creative humans. Um, the writers are on strike in, in Hollywood at the moment. Screenwriters Guild, they're on, on strike, um, for, because they get paid absolutely nothing for the good works that they do. Um, there is a situation at the moment where there are extras in films who come in, they're engaged for one day, and the contracts that they have to sign so that they get paid for their one day.

But the production company gets to use their likeness in whatever way they choose to for the rest of the production in the film, either through artificial intelligence, generation of characters, um, without their consent. Oh, oh, actually this is them trying to get their consent, uh, but without further consultation and also without payment.

So I am seeing, um, the, [00:56:00] what's the word I'm after people are being taken advantage of, um, and not treated respectfully for their creative crafts. And it seems like it's not a problem for most of the people who are getting the advantages of these generative AI techniques. Um, or, or the, the, the benefit of the, the creative minds.

So in Japan, for example, they have said that for AI training data, copyright infringement doesn't exist. It's not a thing. Your intellectual property can be put into training data for an algorithm without your consent, without payment, without acknowledgement or anything. And the Japanese government says, that's just fine.

Nirish Shakya: Oh wow.

Katja Forbes: Yeah. So there's a lot of this kind of stuff happening, and because [00:57:00] it moves so fast, any kind of legislation that might protect people is already too far behind. Like it's just, it's so, it's too far behind already. And so I am most, I'm pissed off that people are not being protected and rights are not being protected.

Their intellectual property rights are not being protected, their creative craft is not being protected or respected. And that everybody seems okay.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm

Katja Forbes: Yeah, that's, that's making me pretty angry.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. But isn't that just how the system works? Has pe, has the system ever cared about people?

Katja Forbes: Uh, well, it depends on the system. Um, the,

Nirish Shakya: I.

Katja Forbes: the, the business will never care about [00:58:00] you. Um, the businesses there to make profit, and we have some businesses out in the world who do have good values and try to live by their values and deliver on their values. Um, but ultimately push comes to shove. A business is there to make profit and so they're gonna make decisions, especially if they're publicly owned companies.

They're gonna make decisions in line with what their shareholders are expecting of them, which is a dividend return. Um, the only way you get to do that is if you make money and you make profit. And the only way that you know, you get to do that is make decisions that deliver profit. Um, making unprofitable decisions that are the right thing is the exception, not the norm. So, yeah, I mean, we kid ourselves if we believe that businesses care about us as humans. Um, I'm trying to think of an example of one that actually does, cuz I'm sure they exist and I'm ting everybody with the, the same brush. Um, I'll think about it [00:59:00] and see if I can think one up.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. But I guess, um, at an individual level, like I'm sure a lot of designers, um, Design leaders, tech leaders, 

Katja Forbes: Mm. 

Nirish Shakya: are frustrated by a lot of what's happening, but they might feel helpless. What advice would you have for them?

Katja Forbes: Yeah. It's a really tough spot to be in. Um, and I've heard other design leaders give people the advice, your, your talent is valuable. Just quit, walk out. But that comes from a place usually of epic privilege

Nirish Shakya: Hmm.

Katja Forbes: and with a lack of acknowledgement of anything that's going on in the worlds of those people. Um, and that, that, that's just not a, it's, it's not necessarily an option.

A person who has a family, that they have the obligation to keep [01:00:00] alive. Um, you know, it's, it's not easy to to, to walk out of a job, um, because you don't agree with the way that they're doing it. It is incredibly privileged to be able to say, my values are more important than their salary that I'm drawing from you.

Therefore, I'm going to make this decision on my values. On the other hand, if you, and this is paraphrasing Kim Goodwin, if your values are any values, when it's convenient, then they're not values. They're just something you say. So sticking to what you believe in and what your values are, um, is incredibly difficult.

If you're in a situation where you are being asked to do something that you feel is morally wrong, if you need to stay in the organization, I would look to what organizational processes are in place to allow you to speak up, um, to say that this is not the right thing and not a, not a decision that you think is comfortable or correct or, um, ethically correct.[01:01:00]

Um, and I think the more conversations that we have like that, the more organizations will start to think not just of desirable, viable, and feasible, but they'll also think ethical as well.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm.

Katja Forbes: Um, if you do feel so strongly about it, then. You, the option is to walk away from it and go and do something else.

But I recognize that that comes from a place of incredible privilege. And we're in a tight market right now. So there's not a lot of that you can walk away to, um, necessarily in it, I think all over the world. My LinkedIn feed is full of people who are open to work.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm.

Katja Forbes: Um, what I would advise rather is to have a really good, strong sense of what matters to you.

What are your values that matter to you on a day-to-day basis that you wanna live? And when you're interviewing at an organization, ask them questions that will tell you whether or not [01:02:00] their values match yours. Whether they are aligned to what you believe to be important, that you are gonna be able to feel like you can live your purpose in that organization, um, so that you don't end up in the situation where you're being asked to.

Designed some kind of toxic tech that's full of bias and going to, um, undermine a lot of people. It's, this is the tough stuff. This is the really tough stuff.

Nirish Shakya: absolutely. Um, and, and it, it, it is a wicked problem, right? For, for a lot of us, and there's no one simple solution to this. Uh, but in terms of like knowing your values, um, w was there like a particular tool that you prefer to help uncover your values?

Katja Forbes: Well, I read a really cool article, um, that my, um, my business coach gave me years ago about purpose. Um, it's in a Harvard Business Review article called From Purpose to Impact, I believe. Um, [01:03:00] and what that does is talks about, it asks you a series of questions to go, what, what do you feel like your purpose in the world is?

Yep. Your purpose can be knitting jumpers for kittens, right. It doesn't matter so long as it's the thing that. Feels to you like your time on Earth is spent well, like you feel like it was worth being alive to do the things that you were doing, that you feel like you contributed. And for me, I've done a lot of thinking about this to come up with, you know, a purpose statement that resonates for me.

Um, I want to be an ethical navigator in the use of data and, uh, technology across business and design. In order to get great societal outcomes. I want to be an ethical participant in those conversations. And so when I look

Nirish Shakya: Why does it matter to you?

Katja Forbes: why does it matter to me? Um, cuz it doesn't matter to so [01:04:00] many other people. Somebody has to care about this shit.

Nirish Shakya: That is true.

Katja Forbes: Um, it matters to me because I see the scale of, um, impact and influence that technology has and can have and the reach that it has, and that if we get it wrong, we are going to get it wrong. So huge and impact so many people with our bad decisions that I can't not care about it. I can't not stand up and say something.

The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. Thank you very much to the chief of Army Australia. But I can't, I can't walk past it and just go, well, somebody else will deal with that. Like, that can be somebody else's problem. Um, I want to be an active participant. I wanna be an ethical navigator of this brave new world of crazy emerging technology that changes on a [01:05:00] daily basis so that we can end up as, um, Beneficiaries of our ingeniousness as humans, um, rather than it being of benefit to the few and of detriment to the many.

Nirish Shakya: Mm-hmm. So Katya, a question that I would like to end with is, um, imagine it's your last day on Earth and you are on your deathbed and someone comes up to you with a tiny post-it and a Sharpie and asks you, Katia, please write your last few words for humanity.

What would you write on that? Post-it.

Katja Forbes: I would 100% steal from Public Enemy and I would write, you've gotta stand for something or you'll fall for anything. I would a hundred percent steal that.

Nirish Shakya: Nice. I love it.

Katja Forbes: Yeah, like public.[01:06:00]

Nirish Shakya: So Katia, what does Katia Forbes stand for?

Katja Forbes: I stand for doing the right thing, even when it's difficult and it costs you,

Nirish Shakya: Nice as as you've shown through your own actions, and that is something that I find super inspirational.

Katja Forbes: Oh, good. Thank you. Yeah. Me, I'm just trying to, trying to not be a shit version of myself, you know, like there's so many decisions that I could have made that would've served me and hurt other people. Um, and I didn't make those decisions to my benefit. And that makes me feel like when I'm lying on my death bed, thinking about what shall I put on the Post-it note, um, it's whatever it is, it'll be honest.

Um, because I, yeah, I, I've tried to do the [01:07:00] right thing and. Even though sometimes it costs me emotionally, it costs me physically, it costs me, um, you know, financially I can find. I've got examples of having to pay out for all of those, but I wouldn't make a different decision.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Love it. Well, Katia, I'm gonna do a quick recap of the wonderful conversation we've had so far. Um, and yeah, I mean, we've gone into so many different directions here.

Katja Forbes: Yeah, I feel like I went everywhere and I talked more about the things that I think, I'm not sure if I talked about enough feelings. Did I talk about my feelings

Nirish Shakya: think we definitely, you know, had some feelings in there. Um, I loved how kind of we start off with that honest, um, kind of opening of like, you feeling exhausted actually in terms of like all your responsibilities at work. Uh, and also how the, the techniques that you use to deal with mind chatter in terms of, you know, eye hockey and things that help you [01:08:00] kind of get into that a hundred percent kind of focus zone.

Uh, I also loved how some of the advice you gave around, you know, journaling as well, uh, and also uh, asking for feedback, which is very important for our own growth. A lot of times, you know, we're too, we're too scared to either ask for feedback or even give the right feedback. 

Katja Forbes: Mm. 

Nirish Shakya: in terms of like, yeah.

Asking do you have any advice for me? 

Katja Forbes: Yes. That's so powerful that that would be like the one takeaway that I would love people to have. Like, don't ask, don't even like you want feedback, but ask for advice,

Nirish Shakya: absolutely. Yeah. Make it easier for them

Katja Forbes: and it also makes the other person feel super smart and valued.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. And also that advice that you are given in terms of like, you know, when you have space, um, you know, take it with gratitude, but also use it to think, 

Katja Forbes: Mm. 

Nirish Shakya: uh, think more strategically.

Um, maybe get, get off that, that. Hamster wheel of busyness for, for, for a moment. And then see like the, the big picture [01:09:00] where you were, where you're heading, and where you should be heading. Um, also love the, the tips you gave me on, uh, taking notes when you're reading books like Your Hedgehog of Post-its on.

Katja Forbes: Yes, it's, it is a very useful physical technique, and it only works physically. I can't make it work digitally.

Nirish Shakya: Um, and also thank you for, sharing your honest fears that you went through when you were starting a business, you know, hiring your first employee. Um, and, and that are, there are, those are some very genuine fears that I'm sure a lot of designers who are thinking of starting a, a new business of their own or, hiring the first employee might be going through as well.

Um, and throughout this process you might have to make some tough decisions as well. For example, having to let go of, good people. Uh, and that's where the, the value of being clear and kind, comes into play. And, if you can not just, handle the process properly, but also make sure that you are setting them on the right path for them.

Can [01:10:00] be, really beneficial for both of you. Uh, and yes, saying yes to adventures is something that I definitely can, can live with in terms of my own career goals, um, and asking the right questions. So you might be in a certain situation within your own company or the industry where things might not be happening, uh, that actually aligns with your values in terms of, for example, your ethical values.

So the thing you can do is to ask the right questions. What are we doing? Why are we doing it? What are the unintended consequences of this? Um, because there is, there is power in questions and a lot of times we don't utilize that power, um, in, in a way. So, yeah, use, use whatever power you have, even though you might not be able to make massive change, uh, to the system, you can actually maybe create that little ripple, um, effect through the little rock that it can drop into the pond.

Um, yeah, maybe looking, looking at your [01:11:00] overall organizational processes and see like where, where are the opportunities for you to speak up there as well. Um, and also doing your values. Um, test, know your own values and be confident about them, about living them, and then using that as a filter for your decision making.

Katja Forbes: Yeah.

Nirish Shakya: Um, yeah, so many learnings, Katya. Um, and as always, every time I have a conversation with you, so thank you so much.

Katja Forbes: You are so welcome. I, there's one thing that I've wanted to talk about and I forgot and I didn't find a place for it, um, cuz it was about feelings. Uh, and this is kind of going out to all of the designers, the younger designers as well, who are just entering the field or in the early stages of the career.

Um, I've observed a lot of teams and I find that our designers end up doing a lot of the emotional labor for teams because we are [01:12:00] often the facilitators, we're often the ones who have the zoomed out view of all of the things that need to happen and the empathy for, uh, our, whoever it is, who's our ultimate end, end human, who's going to use what we're creating, but also empathy for different team members.

Um, and I think that it's really important as design practitioners go through their career. That they recognize when they are being asked to do too much of the emotional labor, um, and take care of themselves through that process. Uh, because there's no other role in, in teams quite like it, I don't think in terms of the amount of yourself that you have to bring to the conversation to get people to collaborate, to get people to work together, to facilitate conversations, to represent all those points of view.

So just [01:13:00] really look after yourselves and be aware of the, the emotional labor that you're doing.

Nirish Shakya: I love it. Love

Katja Forbes: you go. You can edit that in somewhere. Like I, that was one thing that I, I thought was important for feelings.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. I think we're gonna probably leave it exactly where you men mentioned it. I think that that, that's a really great, you know, way too close off this, this episode, which has been so great for me to listen to and I'm sure it's been great for like, you obviously listening right now as well. Um, so Katia, like, are you going to um, be at Interaction 24 in Sydney?

Katja Forbes: I have a ticket. Uh,

so 

yes, I've got a ticket. Um, so yes, I do intend to go there. I was going to put up a talk as well, um, but I haven't decided which one I want to put up yet. Um,

Nirish Shakya: any sneak peeks?

Katja Forbes: well, uh, so there's one that I've been playing with, which is kind of around data privacy and [01:14:00]like ethically secure by design, um, and how designers can play a part in cybersecurity.

So, Um, which doesn't necessarily naturally feel like where we belong. Um, but like so far I've only got a title, so most of the time all I've got my talks manifest themselves. I'll have a, a joke that I wanna tell and that's it. So I've got a whole design coaching talk that manifested from a joke that I wanted to tell.

Um, and then I, I built the rest of the talk around the joke, which I thought was terribly funny. Um, maybe I'm just, I mean, when I tell the joke, people laugh. Um, but it was really, um, yeah, that's all I needed to, to get a whole 45 minute talk pulled together about design coaching.

Nirish Shakya: What's the joke?

Katja Forbes: Oh, it's about, um, design thinking organizations and like my slide [01:15:00] shows, like the national soccer team of whatever country I'm giving the talk in and going, well, if your whole organization has taught everybody how to do design thinking, you might think your team is like this.

There's such an amazing like national level, incredible sports professionals from a design perspective. But I'm here to tell you that really this is your design team, which is then I next switched to my next slide, which is a team of kids running around trying to play soccer. And I say, but I hope that you see what I see here, which is enthusiasm, potential.

That's completely out of control.

Nirish Shakya: Um, I mean there's definitely a lot of, um, element of, element of truth in, in, 

that joke. So I mean, that's a, that's a great way to, to start a, you know, a talk there. Love that. 

Katja Forbes: yeah, I, that was one of my favorites.

Nirish Shakya: nice. Um, yeah, I'll be coming back home in Sydney to Sydney and in, yeah, on the same time. 

So it'd be great to catch up. Um, after it's 6, 8, 8 years, it'll be eight 

Katja Forbes: in London 

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Now it's [01:16:00] eight years since this time we saw each other in Helsinki for interaction 20 20 16.

Katja Forbes: Oh, I haven't seen this since then. Bloody

Nirish Shakya: No, no.

Katja Forbes: No wonder I'm getting old.

Nirish Shakya: You don't look at it at all.

Katja Forbes: Thank you. I have a good team. 

​

Nirish Shakya: Thank you so much for spending your time with us during this conversation. It means a lot to me and I really wanna make sure that this time is worthwhile to you. So please take a moment to think about one thing this conversation has helped you see differently. And if you'd like, you can also email it to me as well. I'd love to know what's useful and what's not so useful so that I can iterate future episodes for you. 

Until next time, keep exploring and keep growing. But remember to take the time for recovery and reflection. I'm Nirish Shakya, and this has been The Design Feeling Podcast. See you next time.